New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
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New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
I received the rifle a little over two weeks ago & have not had the opportunity to load ammo & try it out. It’s an 1874 Sporter #1, chambered for the .40-65 Win. with a heavy half octagon half round 30” barrel. Since it’s my 1st Sharps I took a conservative approach on the upgrades which included a 14.5:1 fast twist bore, drilled & tapped for a scope & a traditional steel buttplate.
After opening the rifle case & inspecting the rifle I was highly impressed with the case-hardened receiver & the beautiful finish of the metal & wood. And the mating of the receiver & stock is amazing. I hope I never have to pull the stock off. When inspecting the muzzle my 1st thought was they forgot to crown it. But a close inspection indicated it was indeed crowned but with the thinnest crown I’ve run across on a firearm. Looking very close I could see the slight uniform taper on the ends of the lands.
So, prior to shooting a firearm, especially one requiring hand loading, I always check the bore twist; make a chamber cast using Cerrosafe & closely measure the chamber & throat dimensions at the correct time after the cast is poured. See the photo of the cast below. Here’s what I found:
Working from the chamber breech to the throat:
Rim seat depth (rim recess): 0.070”
Rim seat dia: 0.607”
Headspace: 0.071”
Chamber dia. (inside case rim): 0.502)”
Chamber length (inside case rim): 2.040”
Overall case length: 2.100”
Chamber mouth diameter: 0.4325” (see note 2 below)
Chamber transition length: 0.013”
Chamber transition angle: 45.0 degrees
Freebore length: 0.025”
Freebore diameter: 0.409”
Leade length: 0.075” (see note 3 below)
Leade angle: 2.5 degrees (see note 3 below)
Bore (land) diameter: 0.4005”
Groove diameter: 0.4070”
Land height” 0.0035”
Notes:
1) Bore: 14.5:1 right-hand twist, 6 lands & grooves, lands: 0.070” wide, grooves: 0.140” wide
2) There’s no evidence of a well-defined neck. I.e. the chamber has a uniform taper from the breech to the chamber mouth.
3) The lead length & leade angle are very hard to measure with vernier calipers or other instruments I have available. Therefore the dimensions are an estimate.
Wayne
After opening the rifle case & inspecting the rifle I was highly impressed with the case-hardened receiver & the beautiful finish of the metal & wood. And the mating of the receiver & stock is amazing. I hope I never have to pull the stock off. When inspecting the muzzle my 1st thought was they forgot to crown it. But a close inspection indicated it was indeed crowned but with the thinnest crown I’ve run across on a firearm. Looking very close I could see the slight uniform taper on the ends of the lands.
So, prior to shooting a firearm, especially one requiring hand loading, I always check the bore twist; make a chamber cast using Cerrosafe & closely measure the chamber & throat dimensions at the correct time after the cast is poured. See the photo of the cast below. Here’s what I found:
Working from the chamber breech to the throat:
Rim seat depth (rim recess): 0.070”
Rim seat dia: 0.607”
Headspace: 0.071”
Chamber dia. (inside case rim): 0.502)”
Chamber length (inside case rim): 2.040”
Overall case length: 2.100”
Chamber mouth diameter: 0.4325” (see note 2 below)
Chamber transition length: 0.013”
Chamber transition angle: 45.0 degrees
Freebore length: 0.025”
Freebore diameter: 0.409”
Leade length: 0.075” (see note 3 below)
Leade angle: 2.5 degrees (see note 3 below)
Bore (land) diameter: 0.4005”
Groove diameter: 0.4070”
Land height” 0.0035”
Notes:
1) Bore: 14.5:1 right-hand twist, 6 lands & grooves, lands: 0.070” wide, grooves: 0.140” wide
2) There’s no evidence of a well-defined neck. I.e. the chamber has a uniform taper from the breech to the chamber mouth.
3) The lead length & leade angle are very hard to measure with vernier calipers or other instruments I have available. Therefore the dimensions are an estimate.
Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
All very nice, but pull the trigger on some live ammo and tell us how it shoots!
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
Wayne,
Nice chamber dimensions inside
With that 14.5" twist-great for longer bullets
and short freebore, would be a GREAT Paper Patch rifle.
beltfed/arnie
Nice chamber dimensions inside
With that 14.5" twist-great for longer bullets
and short freebore, would be a GREAT Paper Patch rifle.
beltfed/arnie
- kenny s
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
Really great idea.
can someone do the same for the 40 70 SS from Shiloh.
I have one on order and would love to have those measurements.
thanks...Ken
can someone do the same for the 40 70 SS from Shiloh.
I have one on order and would love to have those measurements.
thanks...Ken
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
Oh I feel so inadiquet, when I got mine I just went out and shot the thing and been doing so for 29 years. It is good to know that they are made that presice.
Just enjoy this work of art.
Frank.
My long distance provider is Sharps.
I now live in SW Montana
Just enjoy this work of art.
Frank.
My long distance provider is Sharps.
I now live in SW Montana
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
[quote="battleship gunner"]Oh I feel so inadiquet, when I got mine I just went out and shot the thing and been doing so for 29 years. It is good to know that they are made that presice.
Just enjoy this work of art.
Frank.
Frank, do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your comments - surely not.
Wayne
Just enjoy this work of art.
Frank.
Frank, do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your comments - surely not.
Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
Wayne if it's like mine it will shoot the Saeco #740 and BACO 400409M4 bullets quite well ( mine is a 16:1 twist though ). The Saeco is more accurate at 200 but the Money bullet works better at the longer distances. I shoot that bullet at just over 1300 fps.
have a faster twist .40-65 coming very soon and will try the 400409M4 and the 420gr version of the same bullet.
I hope you enjoy that new rifle and I hope it shoots as well for you as mine does for me.
Chris.
have a faster twist .40-65 coming very soon and will try the 400409M4 and the 420gr version of the same bullet.
I hope you enjoy that new rifle and I hope it shoots as well for you as mine does for me.
Chris.
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
BFD wrote:All very nice, but pull the trigger on some live ammo and tell us how it shoots!
Plan to ASAP but prior to loading the ammo & based on the chamber cast dimensions I already know the following:
1) The rifle has a tight chamber. With a tapered body band .409" dia. bullet I should be able to finger seat the bullets in fire-formed cases without case neck resizing or expanding as has been required for my Browning.
2) Since I will be reforming Rem. .45-70 brass, which I have plenty of, standard lyman .40-65 full length resizing dies will not work, but RCBS dies will. When initially reforming, the lyman dies that work fine for the slightly larger chamber of my Browning will not reduce the case diameter sufficiently in the web area unless the base of the die is shortened a bit.
3) Using a .409" diameter bullet with the Rem. brass will not fit unless the 0.012" case walls are turned slightly to take off about 0.001" close to the mouth. Since the chamber has no neck I will not turn the necks down from the mouth any more than necessary so as to minimize reducing the wall taper. I have been turning the case necks for the Browning back 0.5" from the mouth since it has a well-defined 0.5" neck with no taper.
It will be very interesting to see how it all works out
Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
Thanks Chris,gunlaker wrote:Wayne if it's like mine it will shoot the Saeco #740 and BACO 400409M4 bullets quite well ( mine is a 16:1 twist though ). The Saeco is more accurate at 200 but the Money bullet works better at the longer distances. I shoot that bullet at just over 1300 fps.
I have a faster twist .40-65 coming very soon and will try the 400409M4 and the 420gr version of the same bullet.
I hope you enjoy that new rifle and I hope it shoots as well for you as mine does for me.
Chris.
The BACO 400409M4 is what I plan on using since I already have the mould & have used it in my Browning. It worked well in the Browning but not quite as good as a .410" non-tapered bullet I designed (BACO 410410M3) to better match the slightly larger chamber and bore of the Browning, which also has a good bit of freebore.
Eventually I also plan to go to a heavier bullet in the Sharps, hence the reason for the 14.5 twist bore.
Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
T Mac, I ended up sizing bullets down to 408-409, depending on the design, for easier chambering. Also ground the bottom of the sizing die to get a bit more squeeze, also for easy chambering for first firing. I have no idea who made the mould I'm using but is similar to the Lyman postel and shoots great.
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
Gussy,Gussy wrote:T Mac, I ended up sizing bullets down to 408-409, depending on the design, for easier chambering. Also ground the bottom of the sizing die to get a bit more squeeze, also for easy chambering for first firing. I have no idea who made the mould I'm using but is similar to the Lyman postel and shoots great.
I've been experimenting a little with both the Lyman & RCBS .40-65 resizing dies. As I indicated earlier the Lyman die will work if I do the same as you and shorten the die a bit by grinding off some of the bottom. But the RCBS dies are specifically made & stamped on the box label as for the Shiloh Sharps .408, and they work as intended. I acquired the die set with a rifle I picked up for resale, and intended to sell the set separately. Now I'm glad I didn't.
I also determined that the BACO 400409M4 bullets in 16:1 alloy fits my Remington brass perfectly for finger seating in a fire-formed case. And no neck turning is necessary to thin the case wall as I had initially figured. And I was pleasantly surprised to find that when the bullet is seated to contact the leade, one of the grease grooves is located directly under the transition step, which is an ideal situation. So, after initial reforming and fire-forming, I will be able to shoot, clean & reload with no neck resizing & no neck expanding, only using a powder compression die as necessary.
I've only shot the rifle a couple of times to get some fire-formed brass to experiment with, but the rifle is already starting to "grow" on me. We'll see how I like it when a scope is mounted &, being right handed, having to reach around the hammer & under the scope to load a round. And no doubt it will take me a while to remember to go to 1/2-cock after fireing and then full cock after loading another round, neither of which was required with the Browning.
Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
Best to carry a spare firing pin (which you'll eventually break if you forget to go to half-cock prior to trying to drop the block) and a transfer bar. My spotter shoots a 40-65 Shiloh and uses about one a year, on average.
Glenn
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
Thanks Glenn,SSShooter wrote:Best to carry a spare firing pin (which you'll eventually break if you forget to go to half-cock prior to trying to drop the block) and a transfer bar. My spotter shoots a 40-65 Shiloh and uses about one a year, on average.
Closely checking out the action as the breechblock is lowered, I can understand why. In taking an informal survey of several Sharps shooters, the parts that were reported most likely to break are the firing pin & the lever spring, which was also the spare parts recommendation from Shiloh. I'll also get a spare firing pin spring. Due to its size there's a good chance of losing it when changing out the firing pin. No one I spoke with suggested a spare transfer bar but I did note the recommendation from an earlier thread on this forum. I removed the lever spring & firing pin just to see how easy they were to replace and also checked out the transfer bar. It seems to be quite sturdy unless there’s a subtle flaw in the design or casting.
Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
FWIW, I've seen one transfer bar break (not mine).
- Distant Thunder
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Re: New .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1874 observations & info
In firing approximately 30,000 rounds through four 1874 Sharps rifles over the past 20 years I had exactly one transfer bar break. FWIW
DT
DT
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
aka Distant Thunder