Dans Posts

Talk with other Shiloh Sharps shooters.

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semtav
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Re: Dans Posts

Post by semtav »

Kurt wrote: So far I've found that too hard of an alloy will produce flyers in the current freebore PP chambered rifle. I did some testing last month with various, stabile lead/tin/antimony mixes as hard as Lyman # 2 at 15.4 BHN. The groups got better as the alloy got softer. An alloy with a BHN of 9.8 shot the best. As I've said there is a lot of misinformation about how hard lead-tin alloys are. An alloy that has a BHN of 9.8 is much harder than even 10-1. But, here's the really odd finding from back in 2004. The Pedersoli referenced above liked 50-1 the best. I tried numerous lead-tin and lead-tin-antimony alloys, but 50-1 out-shot all of them.
Kurt
Thanks for the Post Kurt.

this little part caught my eye.( I figured it was by you) but my testing with my Browning 45-90 with the freebore showed just the opposite. I finally quit having flyers when I got down to 12.5 : 1 alloy. It may have to do with the different nose shape you were testing with back then or the dia the bullet you were patching. Mine was a money bullet starting at .454 patched to about .4595 to .460. ( Assuming of course we are still talking about patched to Groove, not bore.)

Brian
Kurt
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Re: Dans Posts

Post by Kurt »

Ok Brian What Dan wrote was in color like I just put down. A lot of the conversation he omitted to shorten his response to my comments.
All of his replies went anonymous when he deleted his account on the forum here.
A lot of his later e-mails I wont post. but someday I will post the useful once if I will ever dig them out of my files.

Kurt



Re: Ponderings

Sent: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:14 pm
From: Anonymous
To: Kurt




Kurt wrote:
Good morning Dan.

I just been reading your reply on Ricks Ponderings?
I'm glad that your starting to see the light on my posts I have made here in the past starting from Nov.2002 when I first joined this Shiloh Site regarding the free bored chambers and using proper bullets patched to groove diameter and when you were just starting to make your long elliptical radius bullet designs using a harder alloy to support that long nose.

The first cartridge rifle I developed a match load for was a 45-90 Pedersoli with a 0.150" long, 0.460" diameter freebore. That rifle was used to shoot PP'ed bullets at the 2004 World Creedmoor Championships. The rifle/load combination worked very well, but the recoil was bad. It was a John Bodine rolling-block. I had bee loading and shooting a Pedersoli-Gibbs LR muzzleloader for a year or so previously as my first experimentation with PP'ing.

On these two subjects you gave me a lot of rhubarb's in the past even on the old BPCR site when I was using a different handle :lol: .

Humm...don't remember that, but I do remember posting that quite a few top shooters had tried knurled bullets and couldn't get them to shoot as well as regular GG bullets or the GG'less bullets several of us were shooting back then.

Keith Howell used a chamber back in the 90's with a 15 or 18 degree lead to a 3 degree lead with good results also for the .44 but I'm not sure if he ever did that for the .45.
But I'm glad your posting what your finding for the hard alloy and using Antimony in the mix.
And you will also find that a alloy as #2 will shoot great with a GG or PP if it is at groove diameter or just a little over..

So far I've found that too hard of an alloy will produce flyers in the current freebore PP chambered rifle. I did some testing last month with various, stabile lead/tin/antimony mixes as hard as Lyman # 2 at 15.4 BHN. The groups got better as the alloy got softer. An alloy with a BHN of 9.8 shot the best. As I've said there is a lot of misinformation about how hard lead-tin alloys are. An alloy that has a BHN of 9.8 is much harder than even 10-1. But, here's the really odd finding from back in 2004. The Pedersoli referenced above liked 50-1 the best. I tried numerous lead-tin and lead-tin-antimony alloys, but 50-1 out-shot all of them.

Keep up posting your findings it will help a lot of new and some of the older shooters from getting discouraged shooting these black powder rifles I been enjoying for 52 years now.
I just got a reamer ground fron using two chamber casts from two original Sharps rifles, one a 74 and the other was a #3 Creedmoor and the lead was a measured 5 degrees on both chambers.
I haven't decided yet if I will use that reamer for the new Shiloh or re barrel a 85 action yet.

Let me know how the rifle works out.

Kurt
Anonymous

Sent: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:27 pm
From: Anonymous
To: Kurt



Sent: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:27 pm
From: Anonymous
To: Kurt




Kurt wrote:



hpguy420 wrote:



Kurt wrote:

So far I've found that too hard of an alloy will produce flyers in the current freebore PP chambered rifle. I did some testing last month with various, stabile lead/tin/antimony mixes as hard as Lyman # 2 at 15.4 BHN. The groups got better as the alloy got softer. An alloy with a BHN of 9.8 shot the best. As I've said there is a lot of misinformation about how hard lead-tin alloys are. An alloy that has a BHN of 9.8 is much harder than even 10-1. But, here's the really odd finding from back in 2004. The Pedersoli referenced above liked 50-1 the best. I tried numerous lead-tin and lead-tin-antimony alloys, but 50-1 out-shot all of

Yes I pretty much have found that too if I used a wad to hard like a plastic or a wad to thin like a .023 card.
A .065 cork with a thin card solved that.
What I found with the recovered bullets was severe gas cutting present on the bullet bases.
That might also be what is going on with you.

Kurt

Kurt,

What I need is a bullet catch-box; 9 in the target with 1 in the box. Now that would really help diagnose such issues.
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semtav
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Re: Dans Posts

Post by semtav »

Gents,

Setting up sights for match shooting at medium and long ranges is an art that the Old Dead Guys worked on assiduously. The basics are delineated in the following paragraph.

Here's my attempt at explaining the physical phenomenon that causes the Yaw of Repose which in turn is responsible for lateral bullet drift to the right when fired from right-hand twist barrels and to the left from left-hand twist barrels. Based on reading so far, my understanding is that the Yaw of Repose is caused by the interaction between the effects of gravity on the spinning bullet and the bullet's spin itself. The spin imparted by the barrel's rifling causes the bullet to behave like a gyroscope. Gyroscopes are very interesting machines and are often quite surprising in how they react to applied forces. In this instance we have gravity pulling, accelerating the bullet downward. Since gyroscopes react perpendicular to an applied force, gravity in this case, the axis of spin moves slightly to the right (right-hand twist barrel), which is perpendicular to the force of gravity, in reaction to gravity. This gyroscopic behavior is called precession. It is the gravity-induced bullet tilt to the right, of the actual trajectory, that causes the bullet to drift to the right when fired from right-hand-twist barrels. Over 1,000 yards, that precession induced drift, for our typical BPTR slugs, translates into about 3 MOA of spin drift, or about 30" on the 1,000-yd target.

I'll later detail how one can setup their sights with minimum effort at just 100-yds and with just a bit of refinement at the distances competed at have rear sights that will be a substantial advantage during matches, especially when the winds are switching dramatically.

Cheers,
Dan Theodore
semtav
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Re: Dans Posts

Post by semtav »

Guys,

I thought I'd share some information gleaned from research about BPCR barrels, back at the beginning of the last decade. Typically the original BPCR, match barrels had narrow lands to reduce finning on a bullet's base. Wide lands make for larger base-fins, not an accuracy enhancer as perceived by the ODG's (old, dead guys.)

When smokeless powder was first being developed and tested, the much higher temperatures produced by smokeless rounds eroded narrow lands very quickly. Enfield rifling was developed to reduce land erosion. The great English engineer, William Ellis Metford, was instrumental in developing this new type of rifling that had wider lands and fewer lands & grooves for high-pressure, high-temperature smokeless rounds at Enfield, a British military research center. The Lee-Metford bolt-action rifle (followed shortly by the Lee-Enfield) was adopted by the British military in 1888.

However, certainly, wide lands well support bore-riding sections. Badger and Pedersoli barrels have relatively wide lands; and, we know both of their barrels are capable of producing excellent accuracy with lead-alloy bullets launched with black powder.

I've bore-scoped a number of original match barrels from the ODG era. Some of them were amazingly smooth, like glass, quite unlike any modern barrel I've bore-scoped.

What is the optimum bore for BPCR's? I don't know.
semtav
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Re: Dans Posts

Post by semtav »

I've had several stainless steel, custom Krieger barrels made specifically for BPCR rifles. They all have 8 lands & grooves with the lands 1/3 the width of the grooves. Each one of them produces excellent accuracy.

I started down this BPCR primrose path (coined by Shakespeare, in Hamlet) back in September of 98. Four weeks after the first match, that a friend had loaded ammo for and loaned me his 45-70, Shiloh Sharps, I had a brand new 40-65 Browning in hand for about $1,400, tax, title and delivery included. That rifle was so amazingly accurate, based on what I think I know now, that I don't know why, well I do, I ever designed and had built another rifle for silhouette and mid-range. Us engineering-types can never leave well-enough alone when it comes to rifles, pistols or other gizmos As I'm sure you know, those rifles have Badger barrels with six, wide lands. The 40-65, 45-70 and 45-90, Badger-barreled Brownings can produce top-of-the-heap accuracy when fed the appropriate diet of brass, primers, powder, wads, brass annealing, bullets and match-grade reloading practices.

So, long story short; I don't which style of rifling works the best from an accuracy perspective. But, I have strong suspicions when it comes to which type of rifling supports fouling control the best. 'Tis another story for another time and space.
semtav
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Re: Dans Posts

Post by semtav »

Yes, the smoother the BPCR barrel the less BP fouling remains in the barrel after a round is fired. I've performed numerous experiments to support my assertion. And, lead fouling is also substantially reduced if not totally eliminated. That is why using a stainless steel barrel is an advantage in a competitive situation; considerably reduced fouling control issues. I personally know of a number for top shooters that have high-quality SS barrels that have never leaded, even after many thousands of round through them, not a speck nor sparkle. Of course they apply proper fouling control techniques. It is entirely possible to lead a top-quality SS barrel.

One issue to consider, BPCR's are not muzzleloaders; which have been reported to not shoot as well with patched round-ball when the bore becomes too smooth. I've heard that incorrect comparison on more that a few occasions.

DanT
semtav
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Dans Posts

Post by Lumpy Grits »

WOW :!:
Thank you :!:
Gary
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