Comments on BPCR Accuracy....

[Ray Newman]

On the BP-List, custom gunsmith Dan Phariss made some interesting comments 'bout BPCR accuracy.

Read all ‘bout it:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BP-L/message/37912

[MLV]

Dan Phariss hasn't owned a BPCR for many years.

[Ray Newman]

MLV: regardless, what do you think of his comments about BPCR accuracy , “Once you get down to 1.5 MOA *reliably* at longer ranges for 10-15
shots you are getting down to the point where it may take a lot of
experimentaion to get improvements.” ?

Spot on, out to lunch, or what?

You’ve done a great deal of shooting past 300 yds/meters, what’s your opinion....

[MLV]

Ray: I've never "reliably" been able to get under 1 1/2 MOA at any range; meaning I can on demand produce a sub- 1 1/2 MOA group. It happens on occasion but I wouldn't want to bet on it . I often get 1 1/2 MOA give or take just a pinch. That's with considerable load development. Dave Gullo of Buffalo Arms told me he can get from 1 MOA to 1 1/2 MOA regularly with his special match loads.

Also on my range in Montana the wind almost always blows to one degree or the other meaning that often my groups are under 1 1/2 MOA vertically but past that for windage. . Also I've never had anyone visiting here do significantly better including several BPCR silhouette national champs, who I have let use my chronographs.

I have spotted for some shooters at matches whose grups SEEM to be under 1 1/2 MOA on turkeys and rams, but again they don't always do it. I spotted for Darrell Smithson with a Remington Hepburn .45-90 in a Long Range match where he set some national records and he still didn't keep things inside 1 1/2 MOA at 900 yards while shooting a 99 out of a possible 100. (10 ring on that target is 20 inches wide).

In my own experience groups of 1 1/2 MOA at distance are exceptional and rare with BPCRs.

[Ray Newman]

MLV thanks for your posting your observations & personal experience.

Myself--based upon my shooting & from observations--I have often thought & opined that when a Shooter starts to enter into the 1 1/2-2 MOA groups, he/she is doing quite well, esp. if the group(s) comprise more than 5 consecutive shots.

IMHO, I think @ times we ask too much of these rifles, their sights, & loads....

[Brent]

Ray,
Why do you suppose that is? I agree with you 100% but why can't these guns be made to shoot to 1/2 MOA even? I have heard a million reasons, but none seem to add up.

I wish we could come up with a much better standard for accuracy than the moa of x number of shots at y yards. I would recommend - just for the heck of it - the average group size for 10 consecutive 2-shot groups. But no one would do it.

In the meantime, I am still wondering why my 38-55 or my .45-100 will not shoot as accurately as my father-in-law's .223 Cooper.

Brent

[Omaha Poke]

Brent, I wouldn't really consider 2 shots as being a "Group", or did you mean - 2 consecutive 10 shot groups? I think the Pedersoli challenge has it right. 4 consecutive 5 shot groups on 4 different targets at the same yardage. It is tougher to do than I have been able to accomplish. Randy

[Brent]

No, I really did mean exactly what I said. It would be much better than what you suggest.

The Pedersoli challenge is fine - it is a contest however. It is NOT a statistical estimation of precision.

Brent

[JAGG]

I CLICKED ON THAT SITE AND THEY WANTED SOME PASSWORD OR AN ADDRESS ! If what was said is that 1.5 inch groups is the best you can do with BP loads, then i don't understand ! BP is a very accurate powder to use but the fouling is the problem with loads using it ! Eliminate the fouling by using loading and firing Tech. as muzzleloader shooters do and you will have as small a group as your rifle or you can make ! What you need is a heavy 4 inch bull barrel and a machine rest to fire and wipe the fouling between shots to see just what can be done ! And to use an underground range to eleminate outside conditions on the bullets flight ! An underground range that is as long and high as needed for the testing ! JAGG

[Ray Newman]

Brent, here's my SWAG (Scientific Wild Assed Guess) when shooting single shot rifles w/ BP & lead bullets--

--Changing light conditions play havoc w/ iron sights. 'Scopes help over come this, but a Shooter still needs to deal w/ the following other factors, inc. mirage.

--BP Fouling--hard to keep the bore same for ea. consecutive shot.

(As an aside the famous Rowland .32-40 group of under one inch @ 200yds. was shot w/ a duplex load plus a machine rest & it seems as if no one really knows how long he took it to do it--did he wait for the same conditions?)

--Low velocity + slow lock time + recoil is felt while the bullet is still in the bore + longer barrels w/ more harmonics.

--Two piece stocks.

--Time factor very few Shooters have the opportunity to shoot or the place to shoot every day to hone their skills & obtain optimum rifle accuracy & load development.

--Large dia. heavy bullets. 1/2 MOA is slightly larger than one-half inch, a .45 cal. bullet is approx .458". W/ a ball that dia., you'd need a rifle AND a Shooter capable of putting all the shots into the same hole.

I've heard it said that the single shot rifle of yesteryear was the optimum of rifle development. For that time, it might be true. If it was still true, all the BR & LR/Palma shooters would be throwing their bolt guns into the dust bin of firearms history.

I don't doubt that there are some Shooters & rifles capable of outstanding accuracy. The group shot by Jim Borton @ Modesto Rifle Club proves that, but I do believe that he was shooting a . 32 Miller L . w/ White Powder. I don't know the rifle make.

[Omaha Poke]

Brent, two shots aren't going to prove anything The Pedersoli challenge is a contest. It is a contest to see who can put 5 consecutive bullets on 4 consecutive targets at the same yardage at MOA or sub-MOA It is not only a good test for load developement, but accuracy and shooting skill combined.

What are 2 shots going to prove Most serious BPCR shooters don't even consider a 3 shot group (which by the way is a group) to be of as much information and importance as a 5 or 10 shot string.

When I shoot for load development, if I put 5 shots into a fine group, I continue with that group for at least 10 shots, just to see how the load will behave during a match. Two shots aren't going to tell me much, but maybe I have a different learning curve. Randy

[dnovo]

One topic that never ceases to amaze me is claims of extreme accuracy, BP or otherwise. The scores of the original Creedmoor shooters are public record, as are their targets. Read Roberts or some of the other writers, and you will get detailed information about the limits of accuracy around the turn of the last century. PRECISION SHOOTING, THE ACCURATE RIFLE, SINGLE SHOT EXCHANGE, etc have reports on current BPCR shooting and methods from time to time, yet we continue to debate this subject on forums where everyone ignores the variables.

-Wind (it blows here in Wisconsin too, albeit not as hard as in Montana, etc.)

-Temp, humidity (hell of an effect on BP), and load factors such as powder, bullet weight and type, etc.

-The skill of the shooter.

I could go on, but the last is the most important. I am 58, and thanks to Uncle Sugar circa 1969, my days as a competitive shooter ended with my military career. I can still shoot damn well, but usually with a scope and then more for my own satisfaction than to compete. I would prefer to allow these issues to be resolved by the Dave Gullos of the world than by me or others who merely dabble.

But, let me point out that given the accuracy that one sees as a routine matter at BPCR matches, with iron sights or not, the accuracy of these rifles is pretty damn impressive. My replica single shots work damn fine for me, and are far more accurate than I am on any given day. 'Nuff said.

Now, if ya REALLY want to talk about extreme accuracy, I had Mac McCluskey build me a railgun in 6PPC after seeing the tiny groups that rig is capable of. Or, if you would prefer, I'll send you some targets from the 338 Lapua Nesika built in a 28 pound custom single shot benchrest. Damn accurate at 1500 meters.

Yes, technology does not stand still, in smokeless or BP, but I still have a lot of fun with a BPCR and don't obsess about whether it is 1" MOA or a 1/2" MOA or my usual far larger spread.

Dave

[Brent]

Brent, two shots aren't going to prove anything :!: ...

Most serious BPCR shooters don't even consider a 3 shot group (which by the way is a group) to be of as much information and importance as a 5 or 10 shot string.

Randy, I have waged this battle a million times and all I can say, is that if you know anything about statistical testing and estimation, you would know that group size basically sucks as a measure of anything - all it is, is convenient.

That most serious BPCR shooters don't know any better is only to say that they don't know what they are missing.

I'm not going to go into another lengthy dissertation on this again - I had started one on bpcr.net when it suddenly died an untimely and tragic death. I hope it resurrects itself, but in the meantime, you can read this if you like:
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... 0loads.htm

Brent

[Brent]

--Changing light conditions play havoc w/ iron sights. 'Scopes help over come this, but a Shooter still needs to deal w/ the following other factors, inc. mirage.

Ray, this is true for ANY rifle and I don't have those problems with modern centerfires. Nor does a good scope really do much better for me than irons, but we can compare apples to apples and a scoped .32-40 and a scoped .223 for instance. .223 wins everytime. (and not because of caliber)

--BP Fouling--hard to keep the bore same for ea. consecutive shot.

Not really, we can, and I do, clean meticulously after each shot. I would compare my sequential bore conditions to any smokeless gun and I would wager that I'm at last as consistent if not more so, and cleaner too.

(As an aside the famous Rowland .32-40 group of under one inch @ 200yds. was shot w/ a duplex load plus a machine rest & it seems as if no one really knows how long he took it to do it--did he wait for the same conditions?)

No matter if Rowland's was a fluke or not, most anyone can do this in the space of a few minutes or an hour with an off the shelf quality rifle like a Cooper or even a Ruger no 1 if it's a decent rifle. It's no great shakes to whip the best bpcr rifle with a garden variety modern rifle. Of course, many shooter can't or don't, but among serious shooters, this is not a difficult proposition. My father-in-law does it all the time and while he is a serious shooter, he is not exceptional in that regard and I can do as well as he using his rifles.

--Low velocity + slow lock time + recoil is felt while the bullet is still in the bore + longer barrels w/ more harmonics.

Maybe. I'm building a Borchardt - it's locktime should be competitive with anything out there. As would a Martini.

--Two piece stocks.
Yeah I believed this for a while, but through bolts would seem to minimize this, forearms can be removed altogether and a Ruger #1 will, with a quality barrel, shoot rings around about any bpcr with a quality barrel.

--Time factor very few Shooters have the opportunity to shoot or the place to shoot every day to hone their skills & obtain optimum rifle accuracy & load development.

This is true for most any shooter, and I think bpcr gunners tend to shoot a lot more on average than the modern rifle shooters. While not every guy at the local range can beat me and my Sharps, there are easily several dozen guys that could qualify for the Pedersoli challenge w/o a problem. I could do it easily with any one of a half dozen of Dean's (aforementioned FIL) modern rifles . Yet, I'm in no danger of doing it with my rifles (except maybe my .22 rimfire lowwall).

--Large dia. heavy bullets. 1/2 MOA is slightly larger than one-half inch, a .45 cal. bullet is approx .458". W/ a ball that dia., you'd need a rifle AND a Shooter capable of putting all the shots into the same hole.

I've heard of many .50 bmg drivers that can do this, so I presume that diameter and weight is not the factor. Perhaps it's the lead

I've heard it said that the single shot rifle of yesteryear was the optimum of rifle development. For that time, it might be true. If it was still true, all the BR & LR/Palma shooters would be throwing their bolt guns into the dust bin of firearms history.

I'm always careful of following a trend or drawing conclusions of because of some fashion in some group of people. Afterall, most of them are still measuring group size of 3-5 shot groups. ;)

I don't doubt that there are some Shooters & rifles capable of outstanding accuracy. The group shot by Jim Borton @ Modesto Rifle Club proves that, but I do believe that he was shooting a . 32 Miller L . w/ White Powder. I don't know the rifle make.

My only point, is that the accuracy levels that we achieve are remarkably less than the accuracy levels that others achieve with the same or even far less investment and experience. I don't think there is any doubt that the modern bench rest shooters would yawn at the winning groups or scores shot shot in matches with bpc rifles.

I don't expect anyone to come up with an answer, and I suspect that part of it may include most of the things you have listed. But still, many of them (e.g., scopes) can be controlled for and shown to have no effect.

Anyway, just idle speculation...
Brent

[MLV]

I'm practicing work avoidance so I might as well chime in on this again.

First off let me say that I enjoy group shooting and load testing and probably do much more of it than necessary, but to be realistic as someone pointed out above "how much is enough." The rifles and loads we have are more than accurate enough for the games we shoot. Therefore, the next step is marksmanship, and it is different than load testing.

Steve Brooks, 2 time winner of the BPCR Nat'l Championship, and I are in each others' work area from time to time, and both of us have some of our best groups pinned on the walls. Mine are almost always better than his, but he almost always beats me in a BPCR silhouette match. That's because his marksmanship is better than mine. At some point its time to stop load development (my opinion is that is when groups are around 1 1/2 MOA) and practice directing a bullet onto a target.

Also I want to say that I have seen and shot 1 1/2 MOA five and 10 shot groups but have never seen a 15 shot group that small - at any distance or by anyone. That is considering BPCRs.

As far as the number of shots in a group, I think the purpose the load and rifle will be used for should dictate that. And that's considering any sort of rifle. I can be happy with 3 shot groups from a hunting rifle but often shoot 15 shot groups from my BPCR silhouette rifles.

In discussing the statistics of group shooting with BPCRs with one of the country's most noted ballisticians he told me. "Remember, no matter what size group you shoot it only counts for that day as does its ballistic consistency. That doesn't mean it will repeat identically the next day."

Also I would urge people to take note of how The American Rifleman magazine reports accuracy testing. They usually shoot five groups and give a smallest group, a largest group, and an average. There is usually quite a bit of difference between the smallest and largest. That has been my experience also - there's usually quite a bit of difference in group sizes from the same rifle (or pistol) with the same ammo on the same day.

Now I do have to get some work done.