new Shiloh web page

Ask Shiloh questions about your Shiloh Sharps Rifle.

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77 sharps
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by 77 sharps »

Muzzleloaders and bow hunters both have their own seasons. If BPCR and pistol had their own seasons there would be more hunters using BPCR and pistols. But that's not gong to happen. Personally I don't feel handicapped using a BPCR rifle to hunt during rifle season. In reality you give up very little. Maybe 30 Min. in the morning and evening. If you learn your rifle you don't really give up any range in reality. Another problem is, these rifles are expensive and a good target rifle is a poor hunting rifle. My first BPCR hunt was with a 12 pound rifle for elk. After carrying that rifle up hill for 3 days in a snow storm I'd had enough. My next Sharps weighed 9 1/2#. At this point using a scope sighted high velocity rifle doesn't interest me in the least. Planning a stalk and getting into range to use my .45 2 7/8 SS just makes the hunt more exciting.
pete
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by pete »

77sharps;
I've thought the same thing and agree with you with regard to special seasons and participation. On the other point for me personally I'll have to disagree. Maybe it's because I'm not the greatest shot because I limit my shots to 200 yds when hunting and that's only when the conditions are good which is good light and 90 deg.winds of 10 mph or less. For dense forest it's probably true but I hunt mainly open plains country and there have been more than a few times when I've passed on shots at 220 yds or more and either came home with nothing or killed something smaller ......especially antelope. Modern scope sighted rifles are so much more efficient at killing but the increased challenge is one reason I like bp cartridge. With the increased hassle of bp it wouldn't be worth it if there wasn't a greater sense of accomplishment and history appreciation.
77 sharps
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by 77 sharps »

In my experience most game is shot at about 150 yards, some as close as 60 yards. My feeling are, if you can keep your shots in side of a 8"circle in the conditions and distances you are hunting in that you will get a clean kill. When I go hunting, I practice with my load and rifle to find what distance that is. My current rifle/ammunition is effective out to beyond 350 yards. I have never shot beyond 350 at big game but out to that distance I am confident of a good first round hit. My observations at the range of hunters sighting in their scoped bolt action rifles is that they can't do that off a bench a great deal of the time. Also, unlike hunting with a modern rifle, you need to plan your stalk so the light is right for using primitive iron sights. Early in the morning or late in the evening keep the sun behind you. Shooting into the sun is a really bad idea.

I have watched the antelope around the house but I have never hunted one. I have taken my share of springbuck, impala, and blessbuck. The karoo and Kaokoveld have open plains and are definitely a challenge. Some times I think that PC is causing hunters to limit themselves too much.
pete
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by pete »

I think you're right most shots are closer but it doesn't always work out that way. I'm not one that would say any shot is easy but I guess for me anyway a shot that would be considered not as challenging with a modern scoped rifle is quite a bit tougher with an iron sighted bp rifle. To me that's a handicap. For me it's not PC at all I just want to minimize chances on living targets with my level of comfort ......you're just a much better shot than I am.
jackrabbit
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by jackrabbit »

I am just trying to clarify what I think I am reading. 77 Sharps are you saying you can make a first round, cold barrel hit on an 8" target at some random distance between 300 and 350 yards from a hunting position with a black powder load in a Sharps style rifle with open sights?
thanks,Cody
77 sharps
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by 77 sharps »

You need to read what I wrote again. Unless the animal is in snap shooting distance ( probably 150 yards) there is nothing "random" about it. Personally I'm not opposed to using a range finder with ballistic range compensation. If the conditions are right such as; the animal is calm or at rest, the light is good, I can get into a good steady position, and I feel confident about the shot, YES, I can shoot into a 8" circle at 350 yards from a cold barrel. And when I am hunting most of the time my barrel is not clean. Before I go, I shoot targets from 50 to 400 yards over and over again until I have 100% confidence that I can be sure of good shot placement. Some times there are a couple of thousand dollars resting on the pull of the trigger. I'm just a working guy and I can't afford to waste that kind of money. Hunting bullets and ammunition are very different from target ammunition and setting up and using the barrel sights takes a lot of practice but they are very accurate if you are willing to put in the time.
jackrabbit
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by jackrabbit »

What I meant by random is the critter is going to show up at some distance between 300 and 350, perhaps 332. Not exactly 300, 325, or 350. No need to get all testy, I was just clarifying what you were saying and making sure I had not missed anything. I am also not opposed to range finders and also really enjoy hunting with my Sharps and black powder loads. I am headed out on Friday to see if I can find a moose to kill using these tools, as well as I usually get three antelope, a couple of deer, and often an elk every year with them. The part I have struggled with the most on the longer hunting shots is barreling fouling condition. They go high with a clean barrel and then lower as the barrel gets more fouled. I fear corrosion if I leave the barrel fouled for a couple days while hunting, but then if I clean it, it seems the bullets always fly too high. I also hate to start the morning out by busting a couple of fouling shots off. If you do indeed shoot as well as you say you do, you should try a silhouette match sometime. Your score might be impressive. I am not sure how hunting loads are much different than target loads. Black powder, cast bullet, a good lube....sounds pretty similar to me. I use a flat point, lighter bullet, but other than that they are quite similar to the loads I use at silhouette or target rifle matches. As far as a "working guy," apparently that has a different meaning to some folks than it does me. The "working guys" I know don't have several thousand dollars to rest on the pull of a trigger. It is usually being spent on such things as food and rent.
take care, Cody
Orville
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by Orville »

Cody shoot patched bullets loaded as the originals were, frist shot goes same as the ones with some fouling in the barrel. As for whether it's 275 or 330 yard that comes with lot of shooting at random targets, useing open iron sights you have to know your rifles as the ODG did.
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Shooting grease groove bullets in a sharps is new technology and just a passing fad.
rdnck
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by rdnck »

If you can't deal with 332 yards as opposed to 300 or 325 or 350, you need to figure out how to shoot your rifle. You also need to learn how to load ammunition that will put the first shot out of a clean barrel into the group. You're right--hunting with barrel sights is not like shooting silhouette where you get sighters. It's a different game and on a much higher level than that. rdnck.
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77 sharps
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by 77 sharps »

Cody I can under stand your frustration dealing with the barrel conditions. It has been a long time but I still remember trying to deal with it. Orville is correct, shooting PP bullets makes the problem easier to deal with. But you can shoot GG bullets dirty too with good success. Think about this. A normal .45 GG bullet carries about 2.2 grains of lube in the grooves. The 3/16" lube wad recommended by Sharps weighs 7.1 grains. How do you expect 2.2 grains of lube to do the work of 7.1 grains? A 1/8" lube wad weighs 4.7 grains and adding that to the 2.2 in the grooves you have nearly 7 grains of lube, the same as a 3/16" lube wad. Sandwich that lube wad between two fiber carton wads( oil proof) and you will have a load that will shoot several shots with out any barrel maintenance. This still leaves you with the first shot problem to figure out but you should be able to shoot several shots from a dirty bore.
I can under stand not wanting to leave your barrel fouled but black powder fouling is not really corrosive. It is hygroscopic though. I spoke to a fellow BPCR hunter that hunts with English rifles that are in the 5 figure range. If he is willing to leave a barrel fouled for 2 weeks I figured I would try it. At first I carried a wiping rod with me, then I left the rod in the truck, now I leave it in camp. If I'm using a PP bullet that might stay in the chamber when I unload, I carry a .416 bullet in my pocket to drop down the bore to knock it out but I never wipe until retiring for the night. I haven't rusted a bore yet in over 12 years.
And yes I'm just a working guy. It's all in your priorities. Several times when I've been at the range practicing and some one will ask "getting ready for Africa? I could never afford to go to Africa." Then they get into their new $40,000.00 dollar truck they replace every 3 years and go home. If they would drive that truck for 6 years they could go to Africa for a month, twice. I've been driving my PU since 2000 and it's time to replace it so no hunting for a few years.
COBPTR
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by COBPTR »

Don't worry Cody, you'll get there someday.
Just keep practicing and posting on your Vision Board. :wink:
But in the meantime....we can dream.

Robert G.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
jackrabbit
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by jackrabbit »

Interesting stuff guys. It definitely gives me some ideas and things I will be experimenting with and mulling over the next few weeks. The main point that I think most will agree with is that it is unethical to shoot farther than you can reliably and confidently kill the game animal you are shooting at. For some it is farther than others. After shooting multiple BPCR rifles in close to 100 matches over the past five years and becoming personal friends with several past national champions and many other truly exceptional shots, I have a hard time believing that people exist that can make first shot cold barrel hits 100% of the time on an 8" target much past 200 yards. Pete and I seem to be of the same mindset. For me, unless there is some special situation where the light is great, no wind, and I have a great rest, 200 yards is the upper edge of my limit to ethically kill a game animal with barrel sights on a BPCR rifle. I am not going to get into bragging contest about how much I shoot or how many animals I have killed, but there are few out there that currently shoot or hunt with BPCR rifles using black powder and cast bullets more than I do.

As for Bagwell, I should have known this conversation would bring you out from under your rock. Anytime you want to see if I have figured out how to shoot a rifle, come on out to a match. We will see who needs some learning.... :wink:

take care and wish me luck on the moose hunt!
Cody Smith
rdnck
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by rdnck »

Well, Cody, you're the one whining and asking the questions, not me. I have two trips to Africa with a Sharps rifle on dvd and on one of them, the CLOSEST I took an animal was 196 yards, and three of the other animals were over 300 yards. There are several people on the forum that have copies of or seen the dvds, so you might want to check around and take a look for yourself. FWIW, I usually shoot around five cases of powder a year, but last year I shot a bit less than normal, as I only shot two cases. Believe it or not, I actually do have a 500 yard range in my back yard, and I enjoy using it to the tune of three to six days a week, shooting pigs, turkeys, and rams as well as a couple of gongs with barrel sights.

You may actually shoot more than I do, I don't know. But I will leave you with two bits of shooting advice, since you obviously need it. One is to shoot a lot, but shoot carefully, as marksmanship is a perishable skill if not maintained. The other is to practice and shoot at targets at long range. This does two things. One is that it teaches you what your limits are. The other is that it makes the closer shots seem easy. You're welcome. rdnck.
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Orville
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by Orville »

Shooting in a structured and orderly match is a whole lot different than shooting when hunting. A good shot at a match may be bad shot in a hunting situation for reasons like postion, distance, equipment, and terrain. Until I screwed up my shooting eye shooting in hunting situations was my game across canyons up and down hills at random distances at varying size targets, I could get into a comfortable postion with or without a rest, take my time sizing up the distance, wind, and size of the target before I made the shot. In a structured shooting match I'm uncomfortable, can't find a comfortable postion, no time to size up the shot, it just isn't my game although I attempt it on occasion.
When I hunt I prefer to spot and stalk and have time to size up the shot before I make it.
Charter Member O-G-A-N-T

Shooting grease groove bullets in a sharps is new technology and just a passing fad.
jackrabbit
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Re: new Shiloh web page

Post by jackrabbit »

rdnck wrote:Well, Cody, you're the one whining and asking the questions, not me.
You may actually shoot more than I do, I don't know. But I will leave you with two bits of shooting advice, since you obviously need it. One is to shoot a lot, but shoot carefully, as marksmanship is a perishable skill if not maintained. The other is to practice and shoot at targets at long range. This does two things. One is that it teaches you what your limits are. The other is that it makes the closer shots seem easy. You're welcome. rdnck.
It is not whining or asking questions, I am merely trying to point out your bullshit to keep some poor, unsuspecting fella from thinking he is going to buy a Sharps and instantly be Mr. Quigley. I think if I shot 5 cases of powder a year, and still couldn't go to a silhouette match and hit more than 1/3 of the animals, I would find a new sport. I thought you were coming to the Nationals and were going to impress us all with your skills. I was expecting a real show, maybe kind of like Herb Parsons with a BPCR rifle. The invitation is always open. Anytime you care to show us what you can really do, just come on out.
take care, Cody
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