45-70 chambering issues.

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VenisonRX
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45-70 chambering issues.

Post by VenisonRX » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:57 am

I have 2 shilohs. One is an older carbine and the other is a wolf head stamped carbine and one is a Kirk built Hartford. I am loading cast 457125 bullets and I’m seating them all the way to the top of the last greed groove ring. Any further and the case would be choking up onto the bullet.

The problem I’m having is a large portion of them won’t chambers all the way into the Hartford. It looks as if the bullets are engaging the rifling towards the end because I can see the marks on the lead. This is the first time I’ve tried these bullets. So my initial thought is I’m not that good at casting yet. Last night I tried and only two of 50 would chamber. This morning I tried them out in the carbine just to see and they fell right in. So I tried them in the Hartford again and now all but 10 went in without any trouble. The 10 went in but needed some decent pushing from my thumb to get them to go. So now I’m at a loss as to what the problem could be. Any thoughts?
—Tom

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VenisonRX
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by VenisonRX » Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:55 am

Messed with it a little more just now and this may be a fowling issue? I took out a few rounds and the first one chambered and shot just fine. Nothing would chamber after that. Looked for obstructions and saw none. Ran a copper brush down the bore a couple of times and still won’t chamber. Then I ran a wet swab down the barrel, then a dry patch. Everything chambered no problem. This was the case with every single shot.

Any advice would be much appreciated. And if this needs to move over to a different part of the forum since it’s now sounding a lot less like a technical issue with the rifle please let me know.
—Tom

Kirk
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by Kirk » Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:03 am

Either blow tube or wipe between shots, you have to do one or the other with black powder, and
you've already seen what happens with your wet patch!!

gunlaker
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by gunlaker » Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:45 am

That's one of the reasons that these Shiloh rifles are so accurate. Not a lot of extra space for the bullet to bump up into.

What is the diameter of the nose on those bullets by the way?

Chris.

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VenisonRX
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by VenisonRX » Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:07 pm

The nose diameter is a pretty consistent .451 on the ones I measured. One or two varied maybe .0005 to .001 from that.

Just kindof surprised me because my 50-70 will eat pretty much anything I put into it without a problem. It’s only ever had black powder. But those bullets are quite a bit shorter.
—Tom

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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by gunlaker » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:04 pm

VenisonRX wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:07 pm
The nose diameter is a pretty consistent .451 on the ones I measured. One or two varied maybe .0005 to .001 from that.

Just kindof surprised me because my 50-70 will eat pretty much anything I put into it without a problem. It’s only ever had black powder. But those bullets are quite a bit shorter.
Normally you'll want the nose diameter to be a touch under bore diameter. I like 0.449" when wiping between shots. I have a mold that casts with a fat nose like your bullets, and they shoot fine but there are engraving marks on the nose after chambering them, and they usually leave a little bit of lead in the bore.

The bullets definitely shouldn't vary by 0.001" unless the bullet mold is out of round, which is pretty common on high production molds.

Are you using a compression die to compress the powder before you seat the bullet? You've probably read it on here before, but maybe the biggest cause of difficult chambering is squishing the powder with the bullet when seating it. That often distorts the nose of the bullet. It takes hardly any pressure at all to bump up the nose by 0.001". I learned that one the hard way a long time ago :D

Chris.

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J.B.
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by J.B. » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:21 pm

I've not loaded the 457125 myself but several of my buddies have and between the two or three moulds they have there has been some variation in the bore riding section forward of the top driving band. None of their Shilohs ( all 'B' guns ) like that bullet seated out and usually the case mouth sits midway along the top driving band at best. Certainly with close tolerances the need for wiping or blow tubing will become more critical for repeated shots. Your Shiloh bore will likely be at .450 so if you are running noses at .451 there is already some resistance and this will only be amplified with fouling. You likely arent having problems with the 50/70 as the taper/ogive to the meplat begins almost immediately after the top band. Great cartridge the 50/70 ! Pushing a cartridge through a small section above bore diameter isnt usually much of an issue but if there is an extended portion the resistance can be quite real. If they cant be seated by hand when testing them after loading ...then its a fairly safe bet its only going to get harder..or near impossible to do after one or two shots with black powder. The other thing you might watch is making sure you arent doing any compression with the bullet whilst seating as this can sometimes make the bullet nose deform or 'squat' just a little and this can cause problems too. If you havent already, try seating the bullet so the top driving band is dead level with the mouth of the case. Its been my experience that this particular Lyman bullet doesnt lend itself to being seated out even a little. A difference of around .015-.025 can make a huge difference when you are only relying on your thumb pressure. hth
J.B.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by Lumpy Grits » Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:42 pm

Hope you are not compressing with the bullet
Gary
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VenisonRX
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by VenisonRX » Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:18 pm

Never thought I might be compressing any with the bullet. But Im not too proud to say it isn’t possible. I use a compression die so it wasn’t something I suspected. Ill have to check the noses on some unloaded bullets and double check my seating depth.

Love the 50-70. Just wish I was brave enough to try and replace the front sight blade. It’s an original carbine. Shoots about 12 inches high.
—Tom

Eric Johanen
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by Eric Johanen » Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:47 am

The Lyman mold I've used for years has a large diameter nose and was fine in Trapdoor rifles and carbines because they typical have larger bores. Current made are tighter and held to much better dimensions. SAECO government bullets have a proper nose diameter and I now use a BACO government bullet and it is really good. Bore riding diameter is smaller and not to small for great accuracy. Chambering is easy and can fire several shots without fouling control. Good hunting bullet accurate out to 400 yards. My Shiloh and C. Sharps rifles love this bullet. Mold dimensions are so good that I just pan lube and load as cast just sorting by weight.

Kurt
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by Kurt » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:31 pm

Tom,

If you like shooting without fouling control try the Lyman 457121PH. That bullet you can seat in the case and shoot with out fouling control and if your capable it will hit the 800 yd Buffalo at the Quigley match more than it will miss. :D
It's also a very good hunting bullet.
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DAG4570
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by DAG4570 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:29 am

You might want to try the Cabin Tree locking mould handles for your mould. If you don't hold the mould blocks together consistently enough you will get a little larger and out of round bullet as a result. They sell them at BACO and the aluminum ones are light weight. Your bullet weight will come out a lot more consistent too.

Eric Johanen
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by Eric Johanen » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:11 am

The problem with the Lyman molds is they do not hold dimensions well. You may get lucky and get a mold with a .449 nose or more likely a .451 nose. They will cause problems in modern chambers. I run the nose into a .44 magnum carbide sizer die to set the nose at .449 dia. Just got tired to doing this all the time. Best is a mold that has the proper nose diameter. BACO mold works well out to 400 yards ( just have not got the sights on at 500 to get my setting.) I am using barrel sights on my Shiloh.

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VenisonRX
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by VenisonRX » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:15 pm

I can verify no compression with the bullet. Went back and remeasured everything and a bunch of unloaded bullets and they were pretty consistently .450 for both. My original .451 was incorrect. Sounds like the going preference is .449? I also checked for leading as I bought this rifle used. It has a B at the end of the serial number. My carbine with no B was able to shoot 4 or 5 rounds before needing any help. Same goes for my H&R trapdoor.

I was able to load a second shot into the Hartford with a little blowing. Had to try to get my face around the scope since I don’t have a blow tube so it wasn’t the best ever. It’s possible it could have a custom chamber? That was never mentioned when I bought it but the rear sight dovetail is larger than normal to accommodate the RHO scope that was put on it (came with irons installed and the scope separate. You could see underneath the rear iron sight base in the dovetail) But I doubt it’s a custom chamber.

Where can you get BACO molds? I read about them all the time but I can’t find them.
—Tom

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VenisonRX
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Re: 45-70 chambering issues.

Post by VenisonRX » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:15 pm

I can verify no compression with the bullet. Went back and remeasured everything and a bunch of unloaded bullets and they were pretty consistently .450 for both. My original .451 was incorrect. Sounds like the going preference is .449? I also checked for leading as I bought this rifle used. It has a B at the end of the serial number. My carbine with no B was able to shoot 4 or 5 rounds before needing any help. Same goes for my H&R trapdoor.

I was able to load a second shot into the Hartford with a little blowing. Had to try to get my face around the scope since I don’t have a blow tube so it wasn’t the best ever. It’s possible it could have a custom chamber? That was never mentioned when I bought it but the rear sight dovetail is larger than normal to accommodate the RHO scope that was put on it (came with irons installed and the scope separate. You could see underneath the rear iron sight base in the dovetail) But I doubt it’s a custom chamber.

Where can you get BACO molds? I read about them all the time but I can’t find them.
—Tom

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