16-1, 20-1

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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Don McDowell
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Don McDowell »

I loaded 3 rounds of patched bullets for a neighbors .458 win. 96 gr of 11/2, BACO .446535M cast 16-1 and wrapped in SC 55w.
Next day he texted me a picture of his 100 yard steel target.. :shock: all 3 rounds touching :mrgreen: Now he's working on me to load him some more of those , cuz he's thinking about another trip to Africa. :shock:
So maybe this fast twist thing will work.
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JonnyV
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by JonnyV »

There’s one way to find out.
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bpcr shooter
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by bpcr shooter »

getting that much weight spinning that fast has to increase torque, why introduce more if its not needed???

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig15.htm

you will most likely have more spin drift as well, and either having to tilt/shim your rear sight or use more L/R windage to compensate for it. Also if there are any inconsistencies in your bullet they would be intensified, throwing it further off course.
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martinibelgian
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by martinibelgian »

Right, increasing twist rate from 16:1 to 15:1 is so much more... That same argument probably was also used when the 1st 18:1 barrel was introduced. And now we're already at 16:1.
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desert deuce
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by desert deuce »

For the purposes of clarity, especially important in this instance, the reason I questioned JohnnyV was to ensure me meant 15" and that it was not a typo.

And, as an observation, think the results may be interesting to the readership.
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JonnyV
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by JonnyV »

My bolt gun buddies are all running 7-7.5" twist on 6mm, and 8" on 6.5 barrels with bullets going 3000 fps...my new 30-06 that just got built is sporting a 9" twist Douglass...the idea being to use long for caliber bullets to optimize long range performance.

I understand that all things are not equal. They have a jacketed bullet and I do not. The jacket might give them a little better grip on the lands than my lead bullet might get. I was looking at buying an antique rifle that was equipped with "gain-twist" rifling. It would seem that this has been an issue for quite some time. The rifle in question was used to set a world record group, 3 shots touching at 850 yards. They want more than it's worth, but I did consider it...here's a link to it....

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/prod ... l5374.html

Douglass advises (through CPA in this case) that bullets up to 600-odd grains can be stabilized with 15" twist. I don't plan to go that heavy, but it would allow for a longer bullet, and correspondingly higher BC...might do a nice job with the money profile.

In any case, it will be a fun challenge to see if it can work out, and if it falls flat I can always get another barrel set made up for it, it's a Stevens action.
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Don McDowell
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Don McDowell »

I think the thing to keep on mind on fast twist, bullet length,and black powder is the lower velocity.
While it may shoot well at 1 or 200 yards the stability may drop off drastically beyond that and cross winds will exasperate it drastically
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Kurt »

Pushing a cast bullet in a tight twist like 7 or 8 past 1600 fps with a 1/12 alloy without antimony will do strange things to the bullet even when they have a gas check. and it makes no difference how long it is. It even gets worse when the barrel is a microgroove
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desert deuce
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by desert deuce »

Before I go further, I really don't like giving friendly advice but it sounds to me like I will regret it later if I do not.

Don and Kurt are gently trying to tell you something and you clearly are fixated on over riding their advice.

JohnnyV, did you happen to see an article in Black Powder Cartridge News titled, The Balanced Load?

Balance and equilibrium are factors in black powder shooting that you might consider at length before going further in your quest which, if you don't, may result in an expensive lesson that could be avoided not to mention an expenditure of time that would not be fruitful.

Basically, thinking along the lines of F-Class for shooting F-Class designed rifles and loads in F-Class matches (which you clearly are) as in 9" twist barrel in 30-06, is not the same as success with Cast Lead alloy bullets with black powder at any distance. This is not even apples and oranges, more like coconuts and raisins.

So there you go, not as gentle as Don and Kurt but the ball is now in your court. You have been advised.
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by semtav »

JohnnyV

There have been plenty of shooters shooting 13 or 14 twist 40-82s that use more powder than you will use without any problems, so I see no reason that yours won't work. Other than being the first here to shoot it.

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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by semtav »

And don't limit yourself to the thought process here. If 16-1 doesn't work well 14 or 12 may be the sweet spot.
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desert deuce
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by desert deuce »

More evidence that SEMTAV should not be allowed access to score cards and clear implication that he is unable to comprehend written information. :roll: Wondering if those landfills are hazmat sites? :shock:

So what is being missed? First clue? "A dedicated silhouette rifle."

Second clue? "Stabilizing a bullet over 600 grains."

So how could anyone transpose that information to 40 caliber? SEMTAV not only can, he did. SEMTAV is truly gifted.

Then again, he and JohnnyV may make a perfectly compatible team for such an undertaking? :?

Waiting for others on this thread to join in with them.

As I wrote earlier, this should be interesting. :mrgreen:
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semtav
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by semtav »

Oh now DD !!!!
If I would have listened to you and Don and Brent, I would have never discovered PTG .

Maybe Johnny will wup up on you guys at the next Silhouette match with his 600 gr bullet !! :lol: :lol:
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Don McDowell
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Don McDowell »

Anybody know anyone with a Ruger #1 chambered in 458 lott, and has a spirit of adventure?
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Distant Thunder
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Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Distant Thunder »

Someone will get "wupped up on" with a 12 lb. rifle slinging 600 grain bullets at those steel critters! That's for sure.

Anytime we push the envelope there comes into play a thing called the Law of Diminishing Returns. This law simply states that some is good, more is better and too much is too much.

In my experience the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in with BPCR much quicker than other shooting sports. Whether your trying to shoot a smaller caliber at 1000 yards, using a bigger case for a given caliber for more powder capacity and higher velocity, shooting a longer, heavier bullet in a given twist, seating more wads in a case to reduce capacity and recoil or in some other way stepping across the well established line being followed by “most successful” shooters.

It is a very narrow window of velocity we shoot in and it has very restrictive limitations, pushing the edges too much usually doesn’t end well for the pusher. It’s not a cheap sport in terms of money or time. If there are shortcuts I haven’t found them. One can quickly spend a few thousand dollars chasing the limits and very valuable time that at least some of us don’t have remaining.

There is nothing wrong with trying to work outside the limits, you just need to be aware of what you’re doing and the possibility of failure.

I have spend the past 32 years trying to improve my shooting in this sport and considering where I started I have made progress along those lines. Any progress I have made was a result of my closely observing other shooters who were already successful in this sport and then noting the similarities in how they did what they did and in their equipment. I always figured if they were doing better than I was that they had to be doing something that worked and if they could do it then I could do it and improve my scores.

Scores and success, especially over time, tell us what works, the targets shot IN THIS SPORT tell us what works and what doesn’t.

When I built my current Creedmoor rifle I had the option of going with an 18-twist barrel or a 16-twist. I chose the 18-twist because it had a track record over time and I had already had a long history with that twist rate. I have not even once regretted my choice and 18-twist barrel have served me well for 25 years.

Nothing in BPCR is 100% and in the end you lay your money down and take your chances. Not being a gambling man I have always laid my money where the highest probability of success was thought to be. It’s your money, your time and your journey, you should do what you want and accept the outcome.

The only other thing I will add is don’t look to other shooting sports and attempt to apply what works in them to BPCR. While the attention to detail, good record keeping and metal preparedness cross over to this sport the laws of ballistics in BPTR are not at all like those found in any other shooting sport. Probably the only one that has a good transfer of values are the .22 RF target and silhouette shooting sports. This ain’t F Class!

It will be interesting to see where you go with the GOOD info and advise that has been offered in this thread. Good luck!
Jim Kluskens
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