.45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

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Aviator
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by Aviator »

It's a little hard to believe that more "umph" is really necessary than what you could get with smokeless in a 45-70 case!

While there is probably nothing inherently dangerous about reasonable charges of smokeless in a 45-2.6 case, the larger case certainly makes it possible to put a larger charge in than intended, and possibly even a double charge. (The absence of published smokeless data for the larger cases may be a clue that it is not a good idea for general use.)
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by SSShooter »

Isn't detonation rather than 'burning a possible problem in larger cases with smaller loads of smokeless powder? Seem to remember that from discussions some years ago.
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by JonnyV »

I can feel the cells at the back of my skull straining to remember things I had read about detonation...I believe that the risk lies with undercharged cases using a faster burning powder.

Years ago, when the depression had first hit, I was working with fast burning powders (HP-38, Bullseye, Clays, Titegroup, others) in pistol cases and also the 45-70 (Unique). Luckily, I was also using a chronograph to develop my loads. What I ended up taking away from all that work is that while some powders are indeed very "economical", they tend to result in ammo that shows a wider velocity spread than does ammo loaded with a fuller case. In other words, a lot more inconsistent. I was never able to get ammo that satisfied me from loads like that. Nowadays, I stay away from any load that won't fill at least 80% of the case volume.

This brings up Aviator's point about the big 45-100 case. No smokeless data for this round is likely to fill even half the case. There's a big safety risk there, in addition to the loss in consistency that's likely to result. Even with 5744 in the 45-70 case, my load for that round (29.5 gr) only filled about half the case with my (then) 505 gr bullet. Shooting the Quigley match was a real eye-opener putting my best smokeless efforts up against guys shooting real BP and seeing the disparity in results.
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by VectorMan »

The Lyman manual has data for smokeless in the 45-70 through to the 45-110. The only one they show using jacketed bullets is the 45-70, some of which the velocity is above 2400 fps. It’s interesting to try to figure out the reason why no jacketed bullets for the 45-90, 45-100 or the 45-110. MY speculation is its not needed, the 45-70 has enough room for even greater “umph” as the OP stated he wanted but to do so would be inherently dangerous in the 45-70 as would the bigger 45’s. I have 45-70’s and a Meacham 45-100 with a Ron Smith gain twist barrel, strictly built for long range competition. What do I take for long range competition, the 45-70, because it gets the job done. Get the 45-70 and shoot 65 grains of black powder and if that don’t give you enough “umph” try 85 grains of black powder with a 545 grain paper patch bullet. Shoot 120 rounds through it in 2 days, then let me know if more “umph” is required. I’ve shoot my 45-100 with some big loads of black. It’s not for the weak. When I say shoot, I don’t mean 1 or 2 shots, I mean shoot 20 to 40 round in a hour.

Anyone can shoot a hard pounding caliber and after 1 or 2 shots say”that ain’t too bad”.

I had a Winchester 1895 chambered in the 405 Winchester. I was at the range one day shooting it and a spectator saw my group and wanted to know what I was shooting. When I told him it was one of the most powerful cartridges ever chambered in a lever gun and it had some kick to it, he just had to try it. After his 1st shot he said “not too bad” he then shot it again and said “not too bad” and tried to hand the rifle back to me saying he was done shooting and I said, naw shoot it another 5 times, and he said ok. After just another 3 hard kicking shots, he was done, he had had enough. Recoil slowly creeps up on you, but once it bites, you don’t it want anymore.

You will be happy with the 45-70, but get what you want, its your money.

KA
"keep adding powder til it bloodies your nose and blacks your eyes, then back it off bout 5 grains."
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by bpcr shooter »

shot my 45-100 with 108.5gr of 1.5f and a 516gr DDPP bullet for a few years at everything from silhouette to LR matches. At the end of the weekend, Im pretty beat up.
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buffalocannon
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by buffalocannon »

Dear walksoversnow - I have been firing a 100 with BP since 1999. A few years back I was bored or went crazy or went through a midlife crisis or got lazy and thought I would try smokeless powder. For about a year or so I loaded with 5744 and shot it in matches. Without getting into all the ins and outs of the BP/smokeless thing, let me just say that I believe now more than ever that these long barreled, big bore, heavy bullet, heavy rifles perform best as they were originally intended, that is, with black powder. Best wishes to you.
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by gunlaker »

Interestingly enough Hodgdon has some loads for some pretty huge cases. They even have loads for the .50-140 using 118gr of H-4831 believe it or not.

I have never shot smokeless out of these rifles, but I'd like to watch someone else try that one while I'm sitting a safe distance away :lol: .

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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by desert deuce »

Recoil should be therapy, not injury.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by Red Blaze »

I wish you could see my little box of colorcast pieces, shattered burl forend and what was a 32" barrel, now 24" of a Riflesmith 45-100 built Ballard creedmore rifle. AA Xmp5744. Haven't used more than 1/2 lb of smokeless since. 20 yrs ago. Thank goodness I was at the range and only had the back of left arm looking like hit by shotgun. I feel, like a lot of other people that these big cartridges should be shot with "the one true powder".

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bobw
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by bobw »

Good post red blaze. I been here awhile never fails someone has to bring up using smokeless in big cases. I was at the Q when that woman had a 5744 loaded round make that parlor gun she was shooting come a part. Good thing for her Doc Keith was just down the line and no one else collected shrapnel. Was there the year when that guy blew up a Pedersoli 74 with a previous ringed chamber from his 5744 handloads. Don't really need to see or hear of anymore of these incidences. Shiloh doesn't chamber the 50-140 anymore. On a std barrel the thickness of barrel metal is adequate under the rear dovetail for black powder pressures but not for smokeless. People get stupid all the time. Reread the Shiloh warranty on smokeless use. It's all you need to know. Same as you can lead the horse to water but it's up to the horse to decide if he will drink.bobw
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by Kurt »

I was just to the left of her when that Ballard came apart. She was very fortunate to still have her hand after serious surgery . Then a 74 Sharps fragmented I think it was the next year or maybe two. I have pictures of both. Then one let loose down in Cactus land a friend sent me pictures of that one.
A guy on our range got a brand new Pedersoli 74 in the .45-3-1/4 and he came over to the 200 YD line where I was shooting to show me his rifle and the long shel it was chambered for. I asked him how it was loaded and he said with 3031 but I don't remember how much. I took the shell and shook it near my ear and I didn't hear or feel the powder, I asked him did you use a wad and he said yes a tablet backer wad to hold the powder down. I said don't shoot that load it will damage the barrel. His answer was it's a safe load and he walked back to the 100 yard range.
He fired a couple rounds and two guys were next to him working on the rifle and pretty soon he came over and asked if he could use my cleaning rod. I said you cant get the case out right? I said your lucky that the barrel just has a walnut bulge.
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by Dennis Armistead »

Kurt wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:52 pm I was just to the left of her when that Ballard came apart. She was very fortunate to still have her hand after serious surgery . Then a 74 Sharps fragmented I think it was the next year or maybe two. I have pictures of both. Then one let loose down in Cactus land a friend sent me pictures of that one.
A guy on our range got a brand new Pedersoli 74 in the .45-3-1/4 and he came over to the 200 YD line where I was shooting to show me his rifle and the long shel it was chambered for. I asked him how it was loaded and he said with 3031 but I don't remember how much. I took the shell and shook it near my ear and I didn't hear or feel the powder, I asked him did you use a wad and he said yes a tablet backer wad to hold the powder down. I said don't shoot that load it will damage the barrel. His answer was it's a safe load and he walked back to the 100 yard range.
He fired a couple rounds and two guys were next to him working on the rifle and pretty soon he came over and asked if he could use my cleaning rod. I said you cant get the case out right? I said your lucky that the barrel just has a walnut bulge.
Well Kurt...ya can't fix stupid.
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by Kurt »

Your right Dennis.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by gunlaker »

Kurt wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:52 pm I was just to the left of her when that Ballard came apart. She was very fortunate to still have her hand after serious surgery . Then a 74 Sharps fragmented I think it was the next year or maybe two. I have pictures of both. Then one let loose down in Cactus land a friend sent me pictures of that one.
A guy on our range got a brand new Pedersoli 74 in the .45-3-1/4 and he came over to the 200 YD line where I was shooting to show me his rifle and the long shel it was chambered for. I asked him how it was loaded and he said with 3031 but I don't remember how much. I took the shell and shook it near my ear and I didn't hear or feel the powder, I asked him did you use a wad and he said yes a tablet backer wad to hold the powder down. I said don't shoot that load it will damage the barrel. His answer was it's a safe load and he walked back to the 100 yard range.
He fired a couple rounds and two guys were next to him working on the rifle and pretty soon he came over and asked if he could use my cleaning rod. I said you cant get the case out right? I said your lucky that the barrel just has a walnut bulge.
Funny thing to want a rifle that shoots big, long, impressive looking cases and then use smokeless and a wad with a big airspace. Way cheaper to shoot the .45-70 with it's cheaper cases. Of course it's even better to have a rifle with big impressive cases but load them up with some Swiss.

Chris.
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Re: .45-100-2.6 Smokeless Loads?

Post by Kurt »

Chris,

If I was to have only one .45 caliber BPCR it would be the .45-2.4.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
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