Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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JonnyV
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Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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Nuclearcricket
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

Post by Nuclearcricket »

I watched most of this video. I can say it was interesting. He sure has some expensive toys to play with. He didn't say if the test case he was working with was a once fired case of if it had been fired several times. It was interesting to see how much harder the case neck got from just sizing and expanding it. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes if the neck was just reduced enough to hold a bullet with a bushing die. Another question would be how much the neck hardens from just firing with out sizing, such as those with a tight chamber and using PP bullets.
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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I think he mentioned that there was very little hardening done while firing. I take it to mean that if you have a fired case and the paper patched bullet fits that case without it being sized then repeated loading and firing adds very little added hardness.
Cheers Richard
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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thanks Richard, I may have missed or over looked that statement. It kind of makes sense that firing has little effect on hardening the case neck area but wasn't sure.
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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I got the same thing from those comments, that is, almost all the work hardening is going on at the bench. Also, he started with an un-annealed case, he called out a hardness level of 130 or so for it.

A guy might fairly conclude that if he was running PP or slip fitting greasers where there was no resizing of the case involved, that annealing after each firing might not be so important. Don’t know if I’m ready to make that leap of logic, but it is interesting to think about. I’ll keep annealing each time for now.

I do see why more guys are going to this particular annealer. With a torch type annealer, even a really nice one like the Bench Source, we are just guessing at what the right amount of annealing is. Having a machine that’s programmed to analyze a case and then do all the rest of them perfectly would be advantage. Downside is that you’d have to separate your brass by lot same as the powder and keep track of it.
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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JonnyV wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:48 am With a torch type annealer, even a really nice one like the Bench Source, we are just guessing at what the right amount of annealing is.
Excellent video. 1st let me say that my annealing testing supports the comment that shooting brass has very little effect on hardness. I've repeatedly commented in earlier annealing threads that I anneal after each match or shooting. It's mainly because I NOW neck size and expand each case during my reloading process. For those of you that slip-fit bullets into fireform brass annealing much less frequently should suffice but frequent annealing can still offer a benefit.

Based on BPCR reloading discussions several years ago with Dan Theodore, a very experienced shooter and experimenter, he convinced me to try annealing. At the time I was loading fire-formed straight-wall BPCR cases and finger seating (slip-fit) bullets with very little or no neck tension and never considered that annealing the necks was beneficial. Dan had experienced some problems with his reloads. He was seating the bullets with neck tension and did some testing indicating the problem was variations in neck hardness which annealing will eliminate. But at the time he didn’t believe annealing was necessary with slip-fit bullets. Later, additional testing confirmed that variations in neck tensions, even with slip-fit bullets, directly resulted in measurable changes in muzzle velocity and bullet impact vertical dispersion. After annealing the variations disappeared and accuracy improved. Although finger-seated bullets are loaded without significant neck tension, when fired and obturation occurs, annealing will help mitigate the negative effects of inconsistent bullet release due to hard necks. For more on annealing see my article at http://www.texas-mac.com/Annealing_BPCR_Case_Necks.html

Now, to respond to JonnyV's comment above. I have a Bench Source annealer with a built-in adjustable precise timer. it's relatively easy to determine the amount of annealing required by applying a heat sensitive solution called Tempilaq to inside the necks of a few cases to determine the amount of time the rotating case necks are held in the torch flame. The amount of time required for 750° Tempilaq to melt & changes color determines the correct duration. The same time, typically 4 seconds, is then used to anneal all case necks without the further use of Tempilaq.

Wayne
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http://www.texas-mac.com
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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Hey Wayne, I have a Bench Source as well and I agree about the Tempilaq...however it still does have a certain element of "give" to it...Did you apply the Tempilaq thick or thin? Was it the brush or the pen type? did you use the 750 degree or something else? was the inside of the case clean or dirty? There are things that could potentially affect the results with Tempilaq.

On my machine, I've found that 3.25 seconds, running both torches, with the inner cone adjusted to being just off the brass, works well on 45 cal cases. If I had that machine the guy in the video had, I could see if I'm right. As it is, I'm hoping to be close.
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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JonnyV wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:05 pm Hey Wayne, I have a Bench Source as well and I agree about the Tempilaq...however it still does have a certain element of "give" to it...Did you apply the Tempilaq thick or thin? Was it the brush or the pen type? did you use the 750 degree or something else? was the inside of the case clean or dirty? There are things that could potentially affect the results with Tempilaq.

On my machine, I've found that 3.25 seconds, running both torches, with the inner cone adjusted to being just off the brass, works well on 45 cal cases. If I had that machine the guy in the video had, I could see if I'm right. As it is, I'm hoping to be close.
A thin layer of 750 degree Tempilaq was brushed on the inside of a clean case neck. With one torch 4.8 sec was determined to be the ideal time for Remington .45-70 or .40-65 cases. BTW, I only anneal after the cases are clean with a tumbler & ceramic media.

Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com
flatsguide
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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In the annealing discussions so far the emphasis is on temperature and not on time except for the number of seconds it takes to turn the Tempilaq It’s labeled temperature and has nothing to do with the actual hardness of the brass in question. For annealing it is my understanding that it is a time/temperature process, a piece of brass with a larger volume takes longer at a specific temperature than a piece of a smaller volume to reach a specific hardness. So the Tempilaq alone will not tell one what the actual hardness or softness in this case is unless you also know the time to hold it at that temperature. In the video first shown, it would be nice to know what’s happening inside the box, I’d bet the temperature of the case gets quite high given the short duration of the annealing.
The following is a good read on time/temp related to hardness of cartridge brass, unfortunately he does not give the thickness of the pieces tested. https://vacaero.com/information-resourc ... brass.html
I think I will continue to use my drill motor and attached cup that holds the case and heat it with a propane torch until it glows a dull red in a dark room, a temperature of approximately 1100 degrees F. At that temperature one does not need to hold the case for an extended time because of its thin cross section and I’m not worried about dezincification. I think it is good enough for slip fit of PP bullets. For a modern rifle or for shooting greasers and looking for the best possible accuracy I would go with that machine to get consistent neck grip, it goes without saying that if you don’t have consistent neck wall thickness you won’t see much of an improvement in group size with the machine.
Cheers Richard
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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If anything…I think that the video should highlight how unreliable un-repeatable the various “drill and cup” methods are. This whole thing is about achieving an exact measurement, not a “close enough for hand grenades” measurement…
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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JohnnyV, I agree that it is much more accurate than “drill and cup” or any other torch method if you are trying to reach a specific Vickers number. I did not use the term “ good enough” but “close enough” . I’ll try and elaborate on what I said. The method that is commonly used with the “drill and cup” is heating the metal to the point that it glows red and at that point after cooling is totally annealed and has a minimum of spring back. So it is not necessary to reach a specific temperature each time to be fully annealed just to a red heat. So if one is using say 725 F as the annealing temperature that brass will not be fully annealed. If one wants a tight grip on the bullet then you don’t want a fully annealed neck but you do want consistent neck tension and the high end induction method is probably best for repeatable results just as heating to a red heat gives consistent results but with the latter one does not need fancy gear to achieve to get it. Don’t get me wrong, if I was shooting Hi-power, modern benchrest, F-class etc I’d be looking hard at the tool in the video. My method works for me as I win my share of matches, but different strokes....
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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Didn’t mean to come off as crass or anything. I’m wondering how much improvement is possible with this. I know a guy with this machine and he’s shooting modern. It’s a really slick setup.

With BP rifles, I’m leaning into the slip fitting of bullets. I “bump” the loaded rounds in a sizing die to get just enough to keep the bullet from falling out of the case. Not sure how much more “super accurate” annealing is going to do for that…

I do have several bolt actions that I shoot though (all built on FN 98’s). If I was going to come up with the $1500 for this machine it would probably be for those rifles first and everything else second. I do like to discuss these things though, always looking to gain knowledge and refine technique.
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

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Jonny, while looking for a graph that show shows the relationship between temperature and hardness I came upon these sites. One is from the maker of the high end machine. One of these interesting sites sho a graph and how the the line flattens out at the higher temperatures where temperature variations have a very small effect on hardness.
This was a good discussion and reading these two reports might just be the “last word” in annealing as it stands today.
Good luck
Cheers Richard
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Re: Outstanding video on the science of annealing

Post by Andre »

What was the other site. FG?
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