Buffalo Hunt Feb. 2007

Share your tales (tall or otherwise) of hunting adventures.

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mannyspd1
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Buffalo Hunt Feb. 2007

Post by mannyspd1 »

Myself and two friends, Max Houser and Steve Long, booked bison hunts with the P Cross Bar Ranch out of Gillette, WY., outfitted by Marion Scott. Marion takes his bison hunters to the Durham Ranch, about 20 miles south of Gillette. The Durham Ranch raises bison and holds between 3000 and 3500 head of bison on its 55,000 acres. Of the total herd, about 10-12 mature bulls are hunted a year. These bulls usually are over 1500 pounds, and some have gone over 2000. Bulls taken on this ranch are recognized by the Safari Club International as “Free Range” bulls, and qualify for the SCI record book.

We arrived in Gillette on Feb. 8th, and hunted Feb. 9, 10, and 11. It was agreed that I would go first since I wanted a good “haired up” bull for a full shoulder mount, and the others were only going to have skull mounts done. I was shooting my Shiloh Sharps number 1, caliber 50 2 ½”. I had loaded my cartridges with a pure lead tapered paper patch flat nose bullet from Buffalo Arms, over 95 grains of Swiss 1 ½ with a 1/8” SPG lube cookie and .06” over powder and over lube wads, sparked by CCI BR-2 primers. This load gave me over 1300 fps with 1 ½” and 2 ½” groups at 100 and 150 yards, respectively. I know that isn’t match grade accuracy, but I figured it would be “minute of buffalo.” 610 grain grease groove bullets from Montana Bullet Works will shoot more accurately out of this rifle, but I wanted to use lead paper patch bullets for hunting purposes.

The morning of the 9th was partly cloudy and about 18 degrees, with about 3-4” of fresh snow on the ground. After about an hour of glassing from various vantage points, we located 3 bulls that were in position for a stalk. One in particular had the type of hide I was looking for, as well as good horn length. One thing I quickly learned is that field judging for score on these bulls is tough. Horn length can be judged to a point, but the base of the horns on all the bulls I saw were covered by hair, making it impossible to judge the base of the horns for mass. Since the bull carried decent mass along the length of the horns, I hoped the base would also have good mass. But again, the hide was very long and full, which was my first priority.

After some maneuvering to get a ridge between us, and a pretty easy ½ mile walk on the backside of a ridge, I was able to edge up over the ridge in the rocks and come out above the bulls. I would be shooting downhill at about a 45-degree angle; the distance as they fed left to right was about 110 yards. Setting my shooting sticks aside, I set up in the rocks and waited for a broadside shot.

When the bull I had chosen turned broadside to me as he fed, I aimed about one third of the way up on the bull, just behind and tight against the front shoulder. At the shot, my bull trotted in a circle about 15 yards away, and then went down. My slug had taken the aorta at the top of the heart and also nicked the bottom of a lung, causing massive bleeding resulting in a quick, clean kill. The slug lost no weight, and was found under the offside hide expanded to .65”. The slug hit no bone, entering and exiting the body cavity between ribs. I thought the pure lead bullet would have expanded more, but it did the job nevertheless. The bull green scored 68 SCI points, above the minimum score of 54 needed to make the “book.” With over 950 pounds of hanging meat, Marion estimated the live weight of the bull at 1900 pounds. Marion believes about 50% of the bulls weight is carried in the head, hide, entrails, etc., and I believe it.

As many of you have already stated, these are big, tough animals and shot placement (just like anything else) is very important. Marion related horror stories of former clients shooting bulls with everything from archery equipment to 416 Remington magnums, and if the bull is poorly hit it will soak up a lot of lead and run a long way. Marion and his clients have taken over 150 bulls, so he has seen a lot of bulls hit and the damage certain projectiles cause. Marion says that he is getting more and more impressed with the killing ability of what he calls “Those old time guns.” Marion believes the large caliber; slow moving bullets that are normally chambered in BPCR rifles are good killers. Marion likes soft lead bullets rather than bullets cast of a hardened mixture, so the bullet will upset in the animal and cause more damage, rather than sailing through with minimal expansion. His rational is this: Bison are large heavy animals, but in the area where we would want to put a broadside shot in the vitals, they are not that thick. The hide itself is very thick and tough, but if the bullet stops under the offside hide, it has already penetrated the vital area of the bull causing injuries that will result in the bull’s death.

I would add to this that I believe in flat nose bullets for low velocity cartridge hunting. I have seen hundreds of bullet wounds in animals and humans, and know that low velocity bullets will not always expand. A round nose bullet will stretch the skin (hide) and most tissue to a breaking point, and then pass through, causing the tissue to spring back into its original position, leaving a smaller than caliber hole in the tissue. (This excludes those organs with non-stretchable tissue.) This type of wound is seen most often in low velocity rounds, like handgun rounds and most BPCR rifles. A semi-wadcutter with a defined edge, or to a lesser extent a flat nose bullet, will cut a hole in the skin, hide, and tissue, that is full caliber or close to it, leaving a bigger hole from crush damage after the stretching takes place. Bigger holes mean more tissue damage at these low velocities.

I have included pictures of my bull and pictures of the unfired and expanded round from my rifle. I will include details of Max’s and Steve’s hunts on other posts.

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ArmyBrat
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Post by ArmyBrat »

Great story and pics! That's a handsome bull you harvested and I like the curvature of his horns. The one I shot last week had very good horn mass but little curve to them. They came out and went vertical. Still, it looks good and will be a nice W-I-D-E Euro mounted skull with a bullet hole in it.

Congrats on yours.
Steve
Orville
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Post by Orville »

What was the wt. of the bullet and to what diameter did you patch the bullet to? I'm assuming your gun has the 1-22 twist.
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Shooting grease groove bullets in a sharps is new technology and just a passing fad.
mannyspd1
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Post by mannyspd1 »

Orville,

I have read much of what you have written on the subject of paper patch bullets, (and it has taught me allot!) and I think I know what you are getting at. So far, I have been unable to locate a commercial source for the right diameter paper patch bullets. The one you see in the picture is .503 unpatched, and is at .509 patched, weight is 550 grains. That is the reason you see the deeper engraving on the bullet.

From all the material I have read, including yours, I would like to find a tapered smooth bullet of pure lead, weighing around 550 grains or more, but with a diameter of .493 or .494 at the most, giving me a patched diameter of just under or right at .500, with the current paper I am using. I can give and take a bit on the bullet diameter and make up for it with the paper, but I want to stay just below or at .500. I am thinking of a heavier bullet since the 610-grain shoots better, my twist may like heavier bullets than the 550. The barrel on my rifle is whatever Shiloh is putting in the 50 caliber late production barrels, I am not sure if it is 1/22 or 1/26.

I just ordered a taper crimp die to help get consistent neck tension. 50 caliber taper crimp dies were hard to find, Buffalo Arms just started carrying them, CH dies I believe. For the loads I have been shooting I have removed the depriming pin out of the sizing die, and have been running the loaded cartridges into the sizing die to give consistent neck tension. I think the taper crimp die will give better results.

The groups I mentioned were five shot groups without blow tubing, since I wanted to simulate hunting conditions. Blow tubing helps a bit but not enough to matter much at normal hunting ranges, bringing the 2 1/2" groups to just about 2" at 150 yards. I have left the cartridge overall length short enough that fouling is not a problem for chambering these rounds even after five shots. I realize a half-inch smaller group is nothing to sneeze at but I made a judgment call on the utility of shooting quicker under hunting conditions versus the smaller group. The other reason I shoot these without blow tubing is that it is my understanding that blow tubing should be done right before the shot is taken, so the moisture is retained in the fouling. Under hunting conditions, if I blow tube than have to wait a few minutes before I take another shot, the moisture from the blow tubing will have been wasted (dried out) and the benefits will be lessened. I think sometimes it is not practical to blow tube right before you shoot, when the animal is sighted the shot may have to be taken without the time needed to blow tube. I realize it is a balance between accuracy and fouling on one hand, and the ability to get a quicker shot off on the other, but for hunting purposes, I went on speed over the other benefits. I figured five shots would (or hopefully should) be the limit of what I would need to shoot without blow tubing while hunting.

Unable to find a commercial source for what I want, I am thinking of going to swaging rather than casting, and then making my own. Corbin's seems to have the equipment I would need, and I would have the ability to change ogives, nose shape (flat or round) as well as base shape (flat, cupped, etc.)

Thanks for your comments and I am looking forward to any advice you may have on this subject.
Brent
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Post by Brent »

mannyspd1, you cannot change nose punches easily if you are swaging tapered bullets. The only way you can do that easily is if you are making parallel sided bullets with a strong step at the ogive that Corbin calls a LSWC for lead-semi-wad-cutter. You have to add a second step and a second die for the smooth ogive and tapered bullet. One such die per nose shape.

You could see if Lee's custom push-through sizing dies could be made in a diameter that would produce what you are looking for - I believe that would be quite easy. If they don't have it, Fred Cornell can make it and make it better too.

Brent
Just straddling the hard line between "the arrogance of dogmatism and the despair of skepticism"
pete
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Post by pete »

mannyspd1; Good story/post/photos. That is a nice bull, great horns. I shot a similar bull last year at the Sandhills weighing 996 of hanging weight , close to yours. Mine took 3 shots though (45-70 vs. 50-90?). 1 through the heart , 1 nicked the heart and 1 through the lungs. I agree that I think pure lead is the way to go. I'm surprised too that you didn't get more expansion especially with the flat nose. I used a 45-70 with the Lyman 457125 round nose out of pure lead on the bull and the 2 recovered bullets measure .660 and .732. On 2 other cows I used the Lyman 457132 flat nose pure lead and recovered bullets measure between .700 and .900. So far I'm 3 buffalo with 7 shots for an average of 2.33 per with 1 one shot kill. All between 96 and 150 yds and heart lung shots. The accounts from the 1800's I've read are similar as far as shots per animal.
mannyspd1
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Post by mannyspd1 »

Brent:

Thanks for the information. I'll try those sources you mentioned and see if they can gin up what I want. I had figured to call Corbins, tell them what I want, and have them set me up, but it won't hurt to view other sources-I had thought Corbins was the only game in town.

There are multiple commerical sources for .45 caliber paper patch bullets that are shaped just like I want, and can be patched to bore diameter. I imagine if there were a demand for the diameter I wanted for 50 cals, people would be making them. If I could find a .49 caliber bullet shaped like the drawing of the bullet on your website, I would be in business.

Pete: Thanks for the comments. It seems you are getting good expansion from your bullets. I shoot the same Lyman design in my 45-70, but cast 20:1. You dont have problems with barrel leading shooting pure lead?

Steve: I was too far for a head shot and the angle was never right, although I must admit I was going to go for the heart/lungs the whole way. I was interested in what my bullet what do in regards to penetration, expansion, and wound channel. A good central nervous system shot like yours is the surest way to put something down. Good shooting!

Manny
Orville
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Post by Orville »

Mannyspd1
Thanks for the reply. I have been working with a 16 lb 50 2 1/2 with the 1-36 twist. With the few bullet I have I haven't got it to shoot very well. It seems to shoot the best with a bullet about 1.050 long but I only had about 10 of these. I also got some thick walled brass from RMC which helped. I have a swage ordered from RCE which will make a bullet that is a copy of the original. This is a tapered bullet with a flat tip of .220 dia. the bullet is 1.085 long and about .200 of it is straight sided the largest dia. of it will be .494. I should be able to make bullets from . 950- 1.150. I will patch it to .500-.502. I was interested in your groups, because I have a 50 2 1/2 on order and at this time it will have the 1-36 twist. If one can get groups like you are getting with the lighter bullets I may go with the faster twist as this is to be a hunting gun not a target rifle.
Have you tried any of the 450 gr bullets from BA?
As you said you can see the marks of the paper on the bullet, you will see this whether it is bore size and under or groove size. When the bullet upsets it fills in any and all space.
Charter Member O-G-A-N-T

Shooting grease groove bullets in a sharps is new technology and just a passing fad.
Chris Poston
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Post by Chris Poston »

Beautiful rifle and a great picture ! Congrats :!:
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Oregon Bill
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Post by Oregon Bill »

Manny, very fine bull and nicely taken. Look forward to hearing the details on your partners' bulls, too. What is the weight of your No. 1 in .50 2 1/2?
mannyspd1
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Post by mannyspd1 »

Orville: I have not tried any bullets lighter than 550 grains, since the twist seems to be faster for longer bullets than a 450. I'm sure it would shoot, but I don't think it will shoot as well as the heavier bullets. The 550 I am using is 1.149" long. It begins to taper about .536 from the base, and has a nose of about .300. I believe these are made by Montana Precision Swaging. The quality is poor to fair, there are visible air pockets on almost every bullet, that is why I want to swage my own.

Please let me know how your bullets turn out, and if you could post a picture of the completed bullet (when you get around to making them) I would appreciate it.

Oregon Bill: My rifle weighs about 13 1/4 lbs. I had Shiloh install a mercury recoil reducer in the stock that adds about 13 ozs., not so much for the recoil benefits as to help the rifle balance better. I have always thought that some of these rifles were too barrel heavy for me, balance wise. When carrying them for hunting, the balance point on some is up by the pewter tip or end of the forearm. I wanted my balance point further back. Since my barrel is a 50 it is lighter inch for inch than a 45 caliber, and with the 13 ozs. in the stock, the balance point on my rifle with 30" barrel is right in front of the receiver-perfect for my taste for carrying. I realize others may like their rifles barrel heavy for shooting or carrying, I am just mentioning what was right for me.

Brent: My bullets are currently at .503". Is it possible to "size" those bullets down to .493 or so? How many passes through the sizer with a change in die size will I have to go? Doesn't each pass just take a few thousands at a time? I haven't done any of this before (sizing, casting etc., so far all my bullets are store bought) so any advice would be appreciated.

Manny
Brant Selb
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Post by Brant Selb »

Manny,

Have you considered sending Steve Brooks a check for $150 and the dimensions of the bullet you want? Seems to me it will get you a near perfect bullet a great deal cheaper and faster than going the swage route.

Brant
Just hit the next one!
Brent
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Post by Brent »

Manny, I don't know for sure but I think maybe. At most passes through two dies should do it.

Brent
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pete
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Post by pete »

manny; I get some leading sure, but not all that much. Maybe it's the way I practice for hunting. I shoot 5 shots then clean then 5 more an on and on. At the end of a session I use Shooter's Choice Lead Remover solvent and a few passes with a nylon brush and it's good. I also think pure lead comes out easier than harder stuff. I do shoot 20-1 for match shooting.
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