"Black powder use only"

BigBadBob · Post by **BigBadBob** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:01 am

Hi all,

I got a question concerning the rifles. I think the website says that calibers other than 45-70 or 30-40K are "Black Powder Use Only". Does this mean that since its a black powder firearm then it doesnt fall under the normal firearms laws, and that an FFL isnt needed and that it can be mailed directly to the customer?

Just curious, as I'm planning on ordering soon.

Bob:)

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:42 am

I wish that were the case, but unfortunately, it is not. They are cartridge guns and therefore are subject to all the ATF FFL requirements.

The reason that only the .45/70 is listed as suitable for smokeless powder shooting is that commercial smokeless powder ammunition is readily available in .45/70 and .30/40 Krag. It is not for most of the other calabres. Also, these cartridges can me reloaded with smokeless quite well. Reloading the large calibres such as .45/90, .45/100 and above is difficult because of the large case capacity. It is difficult to get reliabel ignition of safe smokeless powder charges in these large cases because of the large amount of unfilled space left by the relatively small volumes of smokeless powder in them. And again, because of the large volume cases, the danger of over charged cartridges is very real. Any Shiloh rifle is very strong and is suitable for any charge that is safe in an Ruger #1, but from a practicle stand point, loading smokeless powder in the large capacity cases simply cannot be recommended and is a rather chancy practice to attempt.

Rich Siegel · Post by **Rich Siegel** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:20 am

Bob and Lee,

The ATF question is one I've ofter thought about. It's my understanding of the law that if a firearm is a replica of a gun made before 1896 (?) and shoots a cartridge that is not commercially available, the the 1968 Gun Control Law doesn't cover it. I think that's how Larry Romano can sell his reproduction Spencer rifles in 56/50 centerfire without FFL requirements. I wonder if most manufactureres, just to be on the safe side and not push it, sell only through FFL dealers.

Rich

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:04 am

Rich,

You know I've wondered about Romano's repro Spencer and how he got around that. I sure wish Shiloh could ship without having to fool with the FFL holder. But, for their safey and our continued access to buying their rifles, I would much prefer to see any error being on the side of discretion. Having to find an FFL holder to recieve the rifle and do the paper work is not that big of a problem.

BigBadBob · Post by **BigBadBob** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:55 pm

[quote]Having to find an FFL holder to recieve the rifle and do the paper work is not that big of a problem[/quote]

I agree, its not too big of a deal...usually. Currently I'm stationed overseas in the Pacific AOR with Air Force Special Operations. As busy as they keep us vacations are few and far between. I try to get my "Stateside" stuff done when I go on vacation. Having to coordinate a visit to pick up a custom rifle around a wait period can be iffy. I have a buddy in Kingston, ID who stores my outdoor gear (to include firearms) for me while I'm here. Being able to mail a "Black Powder Use only" firearm straight to his address so he could put it aside for me would be ideal.

Oh well, I'll just have to place the order and try to plan a trip to Big Timber 14 months later.

What about their percussion guns then? Are they falling under the same guidleines?

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:45 pm

Bob,

I've workd for "Uncle Sugar" for way too many years to even try to guess. As you well know, if one tries to use logic on which to base a guess, well, you know that "logical Government" is an oxymoron.

Shiloh can best answer about the percussion Shilohs.

BigBadBob · Post by **BigBadBob** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:17 pm

Well,

I've been working for him for a little over 17 years and I'm ready for retirement.

I simply want to build by house, work on my farm, forge some blades, hunt, fish, trap and basically be left the hell alone

i tried calling Shiloh but got a lady who wouldnt even identify herself. I asked for Lucinda, but she wasnt in. No one else seemd to be available, as I couldnr seem to get pas the receptionist on the phone.

Oh well. Maybe Lucinda will write me back and answer my questions

Bob:)

Rich Siegel · Post by **Rich Siegel** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:45 am

Lee,

It's getting harder to find FFL dealers to transfer rifles out here. They feel that you are cutting into their profit if you don't buy a rifle through them. Seems to me that a $25 or $30 charge is fair, just for 10 minutes of paper work and a phone call but if you have an FFL, the government has given you a monopoly.

One dealer told me that he is a Shiloh dealer (?) and that he would order any Shiloh I wanted. He'd charge me $100 though if I didn't go through him to order the Shiloh. I'm going over to see him shortly just to see what his markup will be.

Rich

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:18 am

Good grief Rich.
That is a tad unreasonable to be charging that much. $100.00 is rather stiff for making a phone call and filling in a few blanks on a form. He is obviously trying to make what he would want if you placed the order through him. I would not want to place an order through a so called dealer. I prefer to talk directly to the good people at Shiloh to discuss what I want. That way I can get their opinions as to what will work and what wont.

My FFL didn't want to charge anything because he said it was no work at all. I talked him into charging $25.00 to handle the transfer. I told him that $25.00 was a reasonable national average and he should be compensated something for what he does. He finally agreed to charge, but believe it or not, he agreed reluctantly.

Rich Siegel · Post by **Rich Siegel** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:19 pm

Lee,

Please take this in the best of spirits. There are some good things about living in Louisiana, besides the snakes and gators.

Rich

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:39 pm

My FFL here in MO doesn't charge me anything either, but I give him $10 or take him to lunch. The guys in CO wanted $50 to do a transfer so I told them to stick it, I drove up to MT and picked up my first one. Anyway the point is to look around, I would bet you can find one to transfer the rifle to you, you may have to drive a few miles but I would rather do that than pay that clown $100.00.

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:52 pm

Rich,
Yeah, the bloody damned mosquitoes

Bearbait2 · Post by **Bearbait2** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:39 am

Mr. Sigel,
Same problem here in interior Alaska. FFL holders want anywhere from a 10 to 20% markup to handle the transfer. If you aren't willing to pay their price then you do without.
Shoot Straight