Bench or Cross sticks

[Perentie]

I have been reading that we should be able to shoot under 2 min 10 shot groups.
My mate and I have not come close yet. More like 3 mins at 200 yards. This is off cross sticks, I mentioned this and he said that they must be using a scope off the bench.
So how are these sub 2 min groups shot? If off the bench then how much do they open when sitting on a stool behind the sticks?
Keith

[Luke]

These groups are generally shot at 200 yards, off bench cross sticks or prone cross sticks, using quality vernier tang sights with equal quality globe front sights. It can be done seated as well, provided you have a position that allows you to fully lock your elbows into your knees. But certainly is harder.

All this presupposes your ammunition has been properly tailored to your rifle. And LOTS of practice.

[gunlaker]

Luke has it right. It can definitely be done from prone using cross sticks. If the lighting is good, I can shoot about the same with my MVA soule & globe as I can with my MVA 6x scope. But nowadays I use a scope probably 95% of the time. I never shoot from the bench. Every shot I've taken for many years has been from prone. ( with exception of occasional offhand shooting ).

Practice is the key. If you can't keep the rifle super steady you can't shoot small groups. Recently I've been using my new MVA 10x scope and shooting at 2" pasters at 300 yards. It's easy to see if you are steady enough that way. I also use MVA's centerless mildot reticles. With these, on a regulation NRA target, the mildots perfectly bracket the 6 moa black bull. That reticle allows more precise aiming than if you were simply to use a straight cross hair and try to find the center of a 6 moa black bull.

These rifles can also be very picky with respect to loads. I have more of them than I should have, and some are clearly better than others.

Chris.

[desert deuce]

If I shoot prone cross sticks or bench rested front and rear at 200 yards (Irons or Scope) I expect and get sub MOA groups "after" serious load development in favorable conditions. Occasional half minute groups are welcome, especially when repeatable.

Shooter development naturally is part of successful load development.

[semtav]

If I shoot bench rested front and rear at 200 yards (Irons or Scope) I expect and get sub MOA groups "after" serious load development.

Interestingly the vertical I kept getting during the postal that you chided me so much about seemed to disappear once I eliminated using a rear sandbag.


Probably just my poor benchrest skills tho.

[desert deuce]

All I can say SEMTAV is this, long ago it seems we accepted the fact that you are special.
So why wouldn't you get special results?

[Perentie]

Thanks for the replies, but everyone mentions prone cross sticks or bench sticks. We are using long cross sticks sitting on a stool,
How much does that open the group as less support? I did my load development using a bench and my DZ scope but took the scope off as its really not allowed for the Gongs. I am using a Kelly offset tang with a Kelly front as well. I can get down prone but its the getting up thats the problem, so its stool and long sticks I am afraid.
I was just trying to find out if others getting sub 2 min groups off the bench found they open up with long sticks as well, or is it just us.?
Keith

[Luke]

As I said in my first post, it is possible with proper position (generally, a stool of a height that allows both elbows a solid rest on both knees, trigger hand proper on the rifle wrist, off hand supporting the butt against the shoulder)

But from observation, for many it appears seated off cross sticks adds around 1 moa.

[Ray Newman]

For What It is Worth:

Back In The Last Century, I made shooting sticks so I could shoot from my wheelchair. Did not work out as the longer sticks acted like a lever and magnified recoil effects. Soon decided I needed much shorter sticks or shoot from the bench. I shoot from the bench.

Now something else: you or your shooting partner wear glasses??

I need to wear glasses all of the time. About 24 years ago I had prescription shooting glasses made up. If memory serves, my Optician said that with non-shooting glasses the eye is not looking through the center of lens when shooting, especially with iron sights and some 'scopes Not looking through the lense center will distort what you see. Since shooting with the prescription Rx shooting glasses, I can see the sights and the target much clearer.

As another mentioned, light conditions are especially important when shooting iron sights. Depending upon the light, you could need an adjustable eyepiece for the tang sight. I have an adjustable eyepiece on one my rifles and depending upon conditions, open it up on more on cloudy/overcast days, close it down on bright days.

As an aside, my best shooting rifle is a .45-110 Borchard, spirit level front, tang sight with adjustable aperture. Found I must pay attention to centering the level, or the shot will be out of the group. With paper patch and cleaning between 10 rounds rounds, at 200 yards my groups are about 3".

[J.B.]

Ray that's good information about prescription glasses and the centering of the focus point in 'normal' vs 'shooting' glasses. I certainly found this with my multi focal lenses ..which seem to be 'all the rage' these days. The last two years I've been alternating shooting with or without.. and just using the glasses to set the vernier scale. No the scores haven't improved greatly..but neither have they dropped away. This will vary obviously depending on an individuals prescription, age etc. Even in our club I've noticed some varied shooting positions with most who are seated, using stools which I would consider too high...though those individuals shoot very well from those positions. There is the "correct way" to hold a tennis racquet or a golf club...but I never found those grips to be either comfortable or natural. Not sure I've ever shot a 1 moa group at 2 or 300 yds ever.. but I've shot sub 2 moa on occasion and usually threw a party when I did. Can I do it on demand ? .. Sadly..not as often as I'd like. I can still bend a little and manage to get my elbows onto ..or just tucked inside my knees when I shoot. All else being equal this 'usually' equates to a reasonable result. This of course provided I a) follow through, b) dont flinch and c) arent still worrying about my last miss. That doesnt take into account all the other 'baggage' we carry around to greater or lesser degrees. Arriving on the line in a Zen type state is another goal I've yet to manage. ..but I'll endeavour to persevere .
.. Perentie we have a shoot coming up in May that you'd be welcome to attend if time, health, wealth and opportunity allows. It will be our second last shoot at this range as the gracious landowner has passed away and the 100 yr old range is to be sold off with the property. Love to see you if you can make it.
regards.. Gavin.

[gunlaker]

Thanks for the replies, but everyone mentions prone cross sticks or bench sticks. We are using long cross sticks sitting on a stool,
How much does that open the group as less support? I did my load development using a bench and my DZ scope but took the scope off as its really not allowed for the Gongs. I am using a Kelly offset tang with a Kelly front as well. I can get down prone but its the getting up thats the problem, so its stool and long sticks I am afraid.
I was just trying to find out if others getting sub 2 min groups off the bench found they open up with long sticks as well, or is it just us.?
Keith

Well to me sitting is a whole 'nuther thing. I only rarely shoot sitting. When I have done it it is while sitting on the ground not a stool and at steel targets far away. I doubt that I've ever shot a good group that way . Certainly much worse than prone for me. When shooting prone, my crosshairs will wobble a lot less.

Chris.

[Perentie]

Ray that's good information about prescription glasses and the centering of the focus point in 'normal' vs 'shooting' glasses. I certainly found this with my multi focal lenses ..which seem to be 'all the rage' these days. The last two years I've been alternating shooting with or without.. and just using the glasses to set the vernier scale. No the scores haven't improved greatly..but neither have they dropped away. This will vary obviously depending on an individuals prescription, age etc. Even in our club I've noticed some varied shooting positions with most who are seated, using stools which I would consider too high...though those individuals shoot very well from those positions. There is the "correct way" to hold a tennis racquet or a golf club...but I never found those grips to be either comfortable or natural. Not sure I've ever shot a 1 moa group at 2 or 300 yds ever.. but I've shot sub 2 moa on occasion and usually threw a party when I did. Can I do it on demand ? .. Sadly..not as often as I'd like. I can still bend a little and manage to get my elbows onto ..or just tucked inside my knees when I shoot. All else being equal this 'usually' equates to a reasonable result. This of course provided I a) follow through, b) dont flinch and c) arent still worrying about my last miss. That doesnt take into account all the other 'baggage' we carry around to greater or lesser degrees. Arriving on the line in a Zen type state is another goal I've yet to manage. ..but I'll endeavour to persevere .
.. Perentie we have a shoot coming up in May that you'd be welcome to attend if time, health, wealth and opportunity allows. It will be our second last shoot at this range as the gracious landowner has passed away and the 100 yr old range is to be sold off with the property. Love to see you if you can make it.
regards.. Gavin.

Thanks Gavin. Dan sends me the newsletter and its a shame about the range. Has the new owner been approached about you using it?
I will be 80 next year and feel time is running out. I have finally found a couple of young ones interested in BP that can shoot with me and their parents are getting the bug too. I gave dad my 45-90, One son my 45-70 with PP chamber, the other son my .45 Muzzle loader while Mum is buying a Pedersoli Sharps Quigley from another club member that does not use it. So we all have one now. Regarding glasses. Mine are just ordinary prescription glasses with a little reading lense stuck on the bottom. They say I am getting a cataract in that eye as when I look through the rear aperture there is a dogs ball hanging from the top that nearly goes to centre. I cant see it when I use the scope.I do get better groups off the bench with the scope and I see I am not the only one that opens out to 3 mins off the long cross sticks. I will keep practising. Trigger Time
I would love to come down and visit but whether I get there in May I cant say. Thanks for the invite.
Keith