Shiloh Rifle

hunter3705

I want to put together some simple, basic loads for grease-grooved cast bullets using smokeless powder. I'd like to be able to compete locally, so that means no gas checks. I've gone through all my regular reloading manuals, and everything I can find is on jacketed bullets (sorry, .45-70 govt.), nothing for cast bullets. I'm a little concerned about leading my barrel, so I'd like to use tried and proven loads. Can anyone point me in the direction of a source for loading data? ALSO: Has anybody ever worked up smokeless loads for paper patched bullets? Could you use a lube wad/card wad combo with smokeless powder just as you would for a BP load? Thanks.
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Ray Newman · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject:

This a predominantly a Black Powder site, so you may not receive many answers 'bout reloading w/ White Power (AKA Smokeless/Nitro) &PB bullets.

The following powder companies have on-line reloading manuals that include White Powder:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/index.php

(click on @ 'long range' @ "Smokeless pistol & carbine")

Lyman #47 Reloading Handbook has several pages on .45-2.1" (AKA .45-70) data.

See also Ken Waters "Pet Loads"
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Ray Newman · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 pm Post subject:

I 4got to add, have you loked on any of the CAS realted sights?

Also, Greybeards has various fora, such as SS rifles, cast bullets, reloading, etc.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/index.php?sid=de70c9d5969f68f63b7238810f3ad1ab

Gunboards has a reloading forum:
http://gunboards.com/forums/

Parallex Bill's has a section on 1850-1880 firearmsn, inc. CAS & guns of the ol' west

http://gunboards.com/forums/
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opencountry · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject:

I might caution you in regards to loading smokeless powder in your rifle. There absolutely MUST be a very tight fitting and stable over-powder wad for the purpose of preventing the powder to lay loosely in the case. If the wad should fail, detination will definately happen. Ringing your chamber is one thing, but burning your eyes out or receiving shrapnel is another. You've GOT to know what you're doing, period.

My good friend insists on shooting his 1875 C. Sharps in .45-70 loaded with the reduced trapdoor springfield recommended load of IMR 3031 smokeless powder. He shoots a 375 gr. hard grease groove LazerCast bullet (it leaves lead down the barrel). I asked him one day what he was using for a wad over his powder. He cuts cereal box paper for a wad. And he throws his loads into a tupperware container to store and transport them to the range. In my opinion, he has been extremely lucky in the past. I refuse to shoot his rifle, and feel uncomfortable sitting at the bench next to him when he's shooting. His wad IMO is unstable. Dropping the round on a carpeted floor could shift the wad and he would never know it. I've told him about the .060 poly wads from BA, how tightly they fit the case, but...
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Orville · Joined: 16 May 2005 Posts: 1193 Location: Wiliston, ND

HUNTER 3705

I wouldn't try it with pp bullets. Smokeless powder takes pressure multipling on it self to burn poperly (this is the best way I know how to explain it) this is one of the reasons revolver rounds are crimped and so are other smokeless powder rounds. All smokeless powder rounds use a groove size bullet and moving the bullet in or out of the case thus changing the distance from the rifling by as little as .015 can change the chamber pressure dramatically.

Now for pp bullet, most are about bore size and you wouldn't want to crimp it enough to make the powder ignite porperly.

By putting a long throath or free bore in a smokeless gun a person can get away with burning more powder, Weatherby is known for this.
I have always been of the opinion this was one of the reasons the early shiloh rifles had so much free bore, if someone loaded to much or the wrong kind of smokeless in it they may get away with it.

oregon · Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 37 Location: oregon

if your rifle is a 45/70 heres the load i use for cast greese grove bullets
i use a 500 g. round nose gov bullet with 40 grains of 3031 with a ploy wade over the powder about a .60 wade works great this load will give you about 1275 to 1300 feet per sec and is a very acurite load ..happy shooting ..by the way the mould # for that bullet is lyman # 457125

MLV · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 2158 Location: Livingston, MT

Lyman's Reloading Handbook No. 48 has extensive information about reloading smokeless powder with cast bullets including the .45-70.

BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WITH WADS AND FILLERS WITH SMOKELESS POWDERS.

Capt. Call · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject:

Mike V. is right on the money here!

Anybody that is using wads or fillers with smokeless powder is just asking for trouble and that's with a capital --- T!

All a person needs to do is use the same precautions as you would with any other smokeless round and just shoot them.

If you are having a leading problem then either back the velocity down or harden the bullet until it goes away.

As long as a person is loading nothing longer then the 45-70 case I think there is way to much bad publicity about loading smokeless powder.
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ironramrod · Joined: 05 Aug 2003 Posts: 935 Location: Bismarck, ND

Hunter3705,

The Black Powder Cartridge News had a series of 3 excellent articles re: using smokeless powder in the black powder cases/rifles. They were in fall and winter, 2004 and spring, 2005. They are very good reading and will definitely increase the knowledge of anyone wanting to shoot smokeless in the black powder cases.

Regards

hunter3705 · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject:

Thank you all for your replies and information. Several people mentioned using a card wad of some sort over the powder. Is this necessary? I've never run into that with smokeless rifle loads, but then I've always loaded jacketed bullets. If you're loading cast bullets with no gas check, do you need an over-powder wad? Is the lube in the grease grooves sufficient? I bought a copy of Lyman's 3rd edition cast bullet manual today online, hopefully that will answer some of my questions. I'm not going to load or shoot a thing until I thoroughly understand what's involved here. Thank you all, again, for your help.
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oregon · Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 37 Location: oregon

the poly wad is used in 308, 30-06, and many other cartrages to prevent leading when shooting cast bullets without gas checks..i use it in the 45/70 for the same reason ..the poly wad is by no means a filler..

charlie young · Joined: 05 Dec 2004 Posts: 1123 Location: froid, montana

Before I started using black Powder, I used Accurate 5744, one of things I was told was NEVER to use a wad on top of smokeless powder.

Turk36 · Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 25

Do not put a wad directly on the powder!! I rang a chamber doing that. Many others have also. In Charley Dells book 'The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" he cautions against this,he ran many tests and this was one way to ring a chamber. He recomends that the wad be .100 to .200 off the powder. just use a powder thats not position sensitive,or a slow powder that fills the case,it will be dirty shooting but safe and accurate.--T

opencountry · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject:

I for one am amazed at the many differences of opinions on the subject of an over-powder wad with smokeless powder in a BP case. What do we have for an absolute here? And could someone inform me of a smokeless powder that can fill the case of a .45-70 and still stay well under what's considered safe? Has anyone done this? And was it with a copper-jacketed bullet, or wheel-weight alloy?

Hunter 3705, please strike/omit my earlier posts regarding placing the poly wad directly over the reduced smokeless load in your rifle. My friend may be in more danger than I realized doing this. Take it from here, you guys. After reading Turk36's post, I want nothing to do with steering you toward trouble. By all means play it safe. I misled you out of pure ignorance. I trust Charlie Dells' tests over anyone's personal opinions or experiences.
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Rich Siegel · Joined: 26 Sep 2002 Posts: 566 Location: Maine

I shoot smokeless powder in four of my Shiloh's, 45/70, 50/70, 40/65 and 30/40 (of course, never tried black powder in this). In my opinion, there is no danger in using smokeless loads listed for the cartridges in published reloading manuals. Accurate Arms Powder has quite a few loads listed for the old cartridges. Their 8700 powder works very well in the 45/70. Fills the case but produces lower velocities. Other very good Accurate Arms powders are 3100 and 2495BR. Good IMR powders are 3031 and 4198. Just check for reloading data on the company web sites.

If you use a good smokeless powder lube, you will not get leading. I find that the Lee liquid alox lube works best for me. No leading but it is messy to apply and handle. Works though.

Lastly, Ray, I take exception to your comment that this is primarily a black powder forum. This section of the forum, the "shooter to shooter" section is for discussions on shooting all types of Shilohs, whether it be a 45/70 or a 30/40. Shilohs shoot great with black or smokeless powder. Each type of powder has it's good and bad points. The great thing about smokeless powder is the ease of loading the cartridges and no messy clean up immediately after shooting.

Have fun with the 45/70!

Rich