Shiloh Rifle Forums

This is what I found in the mouth.
Part of the patch.
I think I need extra attention to the mouth when shooting Patched to Groove bullets seated so deep

.

5 shot irons sights (group size)

*1.900.....Aviator.....Ferriss ML........45 cal......91 Gr Swiss 1.5......16 twist........?...............545Gr PP * Interpolated
2.630......DAG45-70....Shiloh 74......45-70......66 gr Swiss 1.5.....1-18 twist........GM210M.......SB 540 gr Creedmoor
2.765.......Woody......Shiloh 77......45-90.......72 gr Swiss 2FG......16 Twist.........CCI-BR2........ML 540 Postell
2.960......Mike Herth...Shiloh 74......45-70.......66 gr OE 1.5.........18 twist........REM 9 1/2......Baco 542 DDPP
3.000 .... SEMTAV....UBERTI H/W.....40-50SBN....50 GR KIK 2F.......1-14.5 twist.......Rem 9 1/2 LR.....SAECO 640
3.345.....Mike Herth..Shiloh 74.......45-70.........66 gr OE 1.5........18 twist..........Rem 9 1/2........543 gr DDPP
3.375......SEMTAV........H/W........45-110......105 gr Swiss 1.5......16 twist..........GM210M.........KAL elliptical PP
3.625.....Mike Herth..Shiloh 74.......45-70........75 gr Swiss 1.5........18 Twist........Rem 9 1/2.......Baco 446 money PP
4.000.....SEMTAV.....Uberti H/W......40-50 SBN...51 gr Swiss 1.5.....1-14.5Twist.........UNK.............KAL Money PP
4.250.....SEMTAV.....UBERTI H/W.....40-50 SBN...50 gr Swiss 1.5.....1-14.5 twist.....Rem 9 1/2 LR......KAL Money PP
4.500.....SEMTAV....UBERTI H/W.....40-50SBN.....50 GR KIK 2F........1-14.5 Twist........Rem 9 1/2 LR.....KAL Money PP
4.625.....Mike Herth...Shiloh 74......45-70.......75 gr Swiss 1.5........18 twist..........Rem 9 1/2......Baco 446 Money PP
4.625.....SEMTAV......Shiloh 74.......45-110------105 gr Swiss 1F.........16 twist.........GM210M.......JIM452555E PP`
4.750......SEMTAV......H/W............45-110.....105 gr Swiss 1.5.......16 Twist..........GM210M.........PJ Money PP
5.000 ....Mike Herth...RB..............45-70........66 gr OE 1.5...........18 Twist..........Rem 9 1/2......543 gr DD PP
5.100.....Mike Herth..Shiloh 74.......45-70........75 gr Swiss 1.5........18 Twist........Rem 9 1/2.......Baco 446 money PP
6.000.....Mike Herth...RB.............45-70........66 gr OE 1.5...........18 Twist...........Rem 9 1/2......543 gr DD PP
6.250.....Mike Herth..Shiloh 74.......45-70........75 gr Swiss 1.5........18 Twist........Rem 9 1/2.......Baco 446 money PP
7.125.....Mike Herth...RB..............45-70........66 gr OE 1.5..........18 Twist............Rem 9 1.2.......543 gr DD PP
8.125 .... SEMTAV....UBERTI H/W.....40-50SBN....50 GR KIK 2F.......1-14.5 twist........Rem 9 1/2 LR......SAECO 640
8.250 .... SEMTAV....UBERTI H/W.....40-50SBN....50 GR KIK 2F.......1-14.5 twist........Rem 9 1/2 LR......SAECO 640
8.625 ....Mike Herth...RB...............45-70........66 gr OE 1.5..........18 Twist...........Rem 9 1/2 ........543 gr DD PP


5 shots scope (group size)

.682......Woody.......Ballard H/W......45-70........91 gr Swiss 2F.......16 Twist.............CCI BR2..........Wood 550
1.355....Kurt..........Hepburn..........38-50.........62 gr Swiss 1.5.....12 Twist.............GM210M.......... BA 371-358 DDEPP
1.888....Woody........Ballard H/W......45-70........64 gr Swiss 2F.......16 Twist..............CCI BR-2.........540 gr M.L. Postell
1.960....Aviator........Shiloh 74........45-70.........73 gr Swiss 2F........16 Twist..............GM150M...............532 gr BACO Money
2.530.....Kurt..........CPA.............40-65...........60 gr OE 2F.............14 twist............GM150M..............Jim395-415E PP
3.020....Aviator.......Shiloh 74.........45--70........74 gr Swiss 2F..............16 twist.........GM150M.......532 gr BACO Money
3.115....Woody........Shiloh 74.........45-70.........59 gr Swiss 2F..............16 Twist.........CCI BR2..........540 gr Mike Lewis
3.750....Kurt.........Shiloh 74.......44-2.6..............90 gr KIK 2F...............17 twist........CCI BR2...........Sage 509 PP





10 shots iron sights (group size)
2.834......Woody...........Shiloh 77......45-90..........72 gr Swiss 2FG......16 Twist.....CCI BR2.....ML 540 gr Postell
4.126......DAG45-70......Shiloh 74......45-70.........66 gr Swiss 1.5......18 twist.......GM210M....SB 540 Creedmoor
6.200.....Woody...........Shiloh 77......45-90.........72 gr Swiss 2F........16 twist.......CCI-BR2.....ML 540 gr Postell



10 shots scope (group size)

2.035....Woody.......Ballard H/W.......45-70..............64 gr Swiss 2F........16 Twist.............CCI BR-2..........540 gr M.L. Postell
3.425.....Woody......Ballard H/w......45-70...............91gr Swiss 2F..........16 Twist............CCI BR-2..........540 gr ML Breech seat
4.212...Woody........Shiloh 74........45-70................61gr Swiss 2F.........16 twist...........CCI BR2............ML 540 Postell
4.517.......Kurt.........CPA.............40-65.............60 gr OE 2F.............14 twist...........GM150M..........Jim 395-415 PP
4.975....Kurt...........CPA...........38-50...............63 gr Swiss 1.5.......12 Twist............GM210M.......... BA 371-358 DDEPP
5.100....Woody.......Ballard H/W.......45-70..............64 gr Swiss 2F.........16 Twist.............CCI BR-2..........540 gr M.L. Postell



10 shots iron sights (string score)
16.084....DAG45-70....Shiloh 74.....45-70..........66 grSwiss 1.5........18 twist.......GM210M.......SB540 Creedmoor
18.463....Woody.......Shiloh 77....45-90..............72 Gr Swiss 2F.......16 twist.......CCI BR-2.......ML 540 gr Postell



10 shots scope (string score)
8.905....Kurt............Hepburn.........38-50............62 gr.............12 Twist.................GM210M......... BA 371-358 DDEPP
11.951....Kurt...........CPA...........40-65.............60 gr OE 2F.............14 twist...........GM150M...........Jim 395-415 PP

Woodys 10 shot trapdoor

4.542....Woody......Trapdoor..........45-70.......60 gr Swiss 2F.........22 twist.............CCI BR2......500 Baco Govt


Woodys 22 cal shoot (scoped)

4.186(Group).Woody ......Win L/W..................Ely Ten-X

14.272 (string) Woody.......Win L/W.................Ely Ten-X

Interesting results. Wish we had a lot more shooters participating though. What's the reluctance?
I'm impressed with Woody's trapdoor results. I'll give mine a try next season with the Lyman gov't bullet. And take a look at the Quigley trapdoor shooters.

Brian,

That is what I was seeing when I was down loading the .45-3-1/4.
I used groove diameter PP bullets and on and off I would see the outside wrap in the case. I started to measure the fired cases and I saw the case mouth turned in like a roll crimp showing the case got pulled up onto the 45º transition stripping the outside wrap.
Also I would see this when I used Southworth type writer copy paper that was very thin .0014-5" and it would strip the deep seated bullet once in a while with the proper length case.
I switched to a thicker paper and this ended the stripped outer layer but I still got the paper rings.
Most of mine with the thin paper I shot deep seated in the .45-120 looked like this when the cases got too long.

This patch got me to thinking about a whole myriad of questions it can bring up concerning bullet size.
From the appearance of the patch, it appears the bullet is pretty well expanding in the case before it crosses the transition area and enters the rifling.
There was a thought espoused by some that Patched to Groove bullets had to be of a much smaller dia than the groove dia to give some room for the rifling to expand into so as not to produce finning.
It will be interesting to see if the same results can be made using a smaller dia bullet to see if the paper gets smashed to such thinness making that argument moot, as the bullet would be of almost case dia before it ever got to the rifling.

Since I now have a .452 dia bullet, hopefully I can compare it to the .454 bullet to see.

1st of all happy holidays semtav to you and your family. Like alot of early pre Bryan shilohs my 50-140 3 1/4" has a 3/8" freebore that is overbored (.510" groove and .514" freebore) call it the C.Sharps influence. A lot of people had pre Bryan guns so configured ( excessive freebore that is larger than groove) I patch to groove sort of. One day.playing with different papers I found I could seat a bullet patched to the overbore dia. Of .513" and it all comes out the end of the barrel with nice groups at the target. Needless to say no paper is left behind. 1 in 25 alloy 140 plus grains of fg as allways a grease wad. I allways seat the bullet out as far as possible and still seat without levering it. Bobw

Thanks Bob
Merry Christmas to you too !

Took advantage of another unusual 45 F day , and took the Shiloh '74 45-70 with DZ Arms scope to the range.
73 gr of 1.5 F Swiss, and a 534 gr Postell bullet 16:1 alloy from my newly received BACO mold.

I couldn't bring myself to shoot at 200 yards.
It is a 2.16 inch 5 shot group at 300 yards, so if you feel like dividing by 1.5 it would correlate to a 1.44 inch 200 yard group.
I think this new mold and new lot of powder may work out OK! Time to take it to 600 yards and see if it holds together.

Chicken, chicken, winner dinner. Great group Steve.

Woody

I think we need to start moving your animals back also. Maybe add 100 yards to each animal? Make that 100 meters.

Naw, I'm just doing what I can to keep up with you guys. I can barely see you in the distance in front of me!
If I could only learn to shoot off-hand.......

Aviator wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:43 am

I couldn't bring myself to shoot at 200 yards.



IMG_20231226_143714152_HDR_smaller.jpg

I dont blame you.
Gets really hard to measure one jagged hole.

Steve,

What was the velocity of that load?

Woody

I dont blame you.
Gets really hard to measure one jagged hole.
[/quote]

Outside edge to edge -1 caliber
Easier than ctr to ctr. Bobw

About 1290 fps