blow & wipe

[bruce m]

has anyone tried blowtubing, followed by a wipe with a dry rag?
just wondering if this might offer some of the benefits of both methods, i.e. get the powder fouling out but leave a bit of lube in the barrel for next shot.
bruce moulds.

[mdeland]

Bruce, I think time would be an issue trying to do both. I believe wiping is more consistent over a wider range of temperature and humidity conditions than blow tubing.
I wonder if wiping with a patch lubed up with something like SPG instead of moose milk or water might not work if done through a chamber protector so you don't grease up the case walls.
Wiping now days, more or less provides a clean bore, first shot environment when both a wetting agent and dry patch are used.
Seems like a lubed patch only would keep fouling soft and rather leveled out and consistent also, over a course of fire. I have not tried it but think I will. MD

[ironramrod]

Bruce,

Yes, I have done that, and got really serious leading in a very short time regardless of alloy or lube.

Regards

[Kenny Wasserburger]

When Shooting GG bullets and wiping you can get the barrel too clean and as Iron stated Leading like a MMMMMM.

Been there done that have the scars to prove it.

KW
The Bionic Lunger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Dan,

As you stated, I do run a higher oil-water mix. I also think your right on about why it works.

This fouling thing, I have been doing quite a bit of research in my large collection of books.

Standford Young's Method is exactly the same as what Jimbo has been using, Which I thing he got from you.

Young mentions a brush and going to the muzzle and pushing the first wet patch off, the second to the muzzle and then back to the chamber then back out and off. First Dry patch out and off, second dry to the muzzle and then draw back to the chamber then out and off.

I have also been looking into what Slug gun shooters use and find some interesting correlations but nothing set in stone, most lube their Cross Patches where we do not. Many of them use Murphy's Oil soap in their wiping solutions along with Rubbing Alcohol.

I find Greeners books to be not much help, he just keeps telling everyone how great the British were at Long Range International competition and ow lousy the Yanks were, yet the records speak of a much different story.
Greener was no shooter in my Opinion. but does mention a barrel cooler (blow tube in a picture). That the man built fine guns is of no question.

A C Gould's book mentions the Fisher Brush in some detail, you know he was a shooter. Sir Henry was a tad vague and mentions only blow tubing since wiping had been disallowed at the time he wrote down his stuff.

Rywells book on the Sharps has excerpts of using fisher type brushes and the maxim of being very consistent in ones wiping method no mater what it was, but uniformity a Must.

A serious Wiping test is to be conducted at the 25 LB Research Center for Advanced PP studies when warmer weather returns to Wyoming.

Am off to bed.

KW
The Bionic Lunger

[mdeland]

I'm still messing with wads to help reduce bore leading and powder fouling. I still feel there is more to be learned in this area to aid GG bullets to preform better.
I have given about all wad material types a try and am going to do some more experimenting with lubed felt in various thicknesses and see what transpires.
The impression I get is that most of the bore leading has it's origin in the case mouth to leade angle transition when hot gas is escaping around the bullet base (before bump up seals things off), up the shank and taking some atomized lead and lube with it. In this case I think the lube works as a flux combined with the combustion and friction heat and solders the atomized lead and tin to the bore wall ahead of the bullet body.
The bullet body then comes along and runs over it ironing it onto the bore wall were ever it stuck on farther up tube. Tight spots in the bore seem to produce the same effect to a lessor degree. Each new shot continues the build up the lead deposit and fouling until a bullet is deformed enough to not fly true.
I can see this in my lead pistol bullets as well when I shoot them plain based or add a milk carton wad to them. The ones with wads lead the bore less than do the plain base in most instances.
A point of interest I have noted since I got the Hawkeye is that pitted bores do not seem to lead much around rough pitted areas. Frankly this was amazing to me as I had always assumed pitting would tear off chucks of lead and smear it on the barrel wall.
Now if a tight spot is present in a pitted area you will find a lead mine usually.
I have lapped quite a few bores over the last 25 years and have taken some to 1200 and onto rouge. They shine so much it hurts your eyes to look down them with a light in the muzzle.
I can find no advantage in taking them past 400 grit as far as fouling is concerned with lead or jackets.
And the search goes on!
MD

[Woody]

An observation.

I've recently been playing on the skeet field with a Gibbs 10 gauge. The bores are perfect. I started loading by dipping a 1/2 inch fiber wad into my standard BPCR lube and going for it. After very few rounds, the tubes were literally coated with lead. During cleaning, I removed long strings of lead and removal was a chore. I opted for more lube. I basically deep fried the wads in lube until they were fully saturated. Now after even one hundred rounds, I have no strings of lead and very little anywhere. Two or three passes with a dry bronze brush, followed with a couple of wet patches and the tubes are clean. The only downside I can see, is the large amount of lube a half inch wad can soak up. So in this case, it seems the lube has prevented the lead from the shot from adhering to the tube walls. As you know, you don't wipe or blow during a round of skeet.

Woody

[mdeland]

Thanks for the input guys. I like to hear what you have learned as it will aid in my own observations and things to try out.
I have tried dipped felt wads in melted bee's wax in revolvers and it didn't work for sour apples that I could see. I'm sure it was the wax and not the technique though.
As you all know in a revolver one has an extreme case of blow by potential when the bullet or ball is jumping the cylinder gap into the forcing cone and seems like a good test bed for examining the blow by theory present to a greater degree in a rifle chamber and throat.
Wonder wads for muzzle loading use a dry lube on their wads that is a yellow color and I have not tried these for cartridge application.
I'm thinking perhaps the seal when the bullet base makes the jump from case mouth to leade is where the blow by is happening and starting the lead and possibly powder fouling.
If one starts out by running a lubed patch up bore than the skids are pre-greased and the centrifugal force from bullet rotation should distribute the lube in the bullet grooves up tube and theoretically eliminate lead and powder fouling. In practice this is not necessarily true so lead and powder fouling have differing reasons for occurring depending on various conditions present at the time of firing.
Woody I think the lack of projectile rotation in a shot gun changes the lube distribution dynamics and your lube saturated wad is allowing enough lube to be blown ahead of the shot column to lube the shot making contact with the barrel wall so it doesn't rub off and there is no corner for the hot gas to atomize lead and solder it onto the bore ahead. I'm thinking the lead streaks were cause by lack of lube blow by from the wad and the shot was running dry against the barrel wall. When more lube was present the skids were greased.
A shot cup would probably eliminate it as well but then one can get plastic fouling along with lead and powder.
I'm thinking that the seal at ignition is the primary culprit in most fouling initiation be it powder or lead when greased bullets are fired. MD

[Woody]

I was discussing wads earlier today with another shooter. I'm sure you have played with plastic wads in your travels. I switched a number of years ago after being convinced by two different shooters whose opinions I respect. When I used fiber wads, I had excellent accuracy and no leading to speak of. When I inspected the bases of fired bullets, I found gas cutting on the base driving band and the powder grains had left impressions through the wad and onto the base of the bullet. When I switched to LDPE plastic, the gas cutting and powder impressions were eliminated. Have not looked back. Accuracy was unchanged. I cut my own wads from LDPE plastic sheets. The plastic I get seems to be softer than the plastic used in the wads I've seen currently commercially available. I get mine from McMaster-Carr. If the temp/humidity permit, I blow tube. If shooting mid and long range without cover on a hot/dry day, I'll wipe, but I've had better consistency blow tubing.

Woody

[mdeland]

Yeah Woody, I tried LDPE and HDPE, veggie, some .125 dry felt and milk carton. My favorite to date is veggie material a few thousands over groove diameter.
I've been watching Kenny's multiple wad experiments if I understood him correctly and am curious about these in gg bullet use. Possibly a greaser and seal wad used in tandem.
Never have experimented with cookies either as I don't think it is only lube that is needed but a gas shield as well. Your findings seem to be similar.
Are wads usually used behind PP bullets? I have not messed with them enough to know much about what works and what doesn't? MD

[boge]

...I have also been looking into what Slug gun shooters use and find some interesting correlations but nothing set in stone, most lube their Cross Patches where we do not. Many of them use Murphy's Oil soap in their wiping solutions along with Rubbing Alcohol...

I've used a combo of distilled water, Murphy's Oil Soap & rubbing alcohol (1/3 all) for years as a BP bore cleaner. I used to use hydrogen peroxide in the mix but Dutch Bill convinced me otherwise years ago as it's an oxidizer and bad ju ju for rust if I recall correctly. Anyway, it's a helluva cleaner and smells great to boot. I always thought that a trace amount of the MOS in the bore aided saponification with the BP residue, which is I believe what a good lube does.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Boge,

I used to use Murphy's oil soap, and it worked well As I can recall. However I felt A need for rust protection and went to the Nappa stuff after quite a bit of thought. The Murphy's oil soap I think your Theory about it helping in the area of saponification with BP Fouling may be a valid one.

Perhaps I should Try it again in my Tests next spring. I have also considered lowering the Oil Content from 1-3 to 1-5. I know Mike Rix and I had some email discussions on this last winter when he was picking my brain on PP and fouling control in Creedmoor. Mike uses a 1-5 mix as many I know do in Long Range. I am wondering though as the 1-3 mix has worked quite well for me, at Phoenix, the 5@200, and Raton over the past few years. I may go middle of the road and try 1-4 mix first?

I still think along the lines of the Slug gun Shooters, who's Ranks I am about in Join, that they shoot itty bitty groups at 40 and 100 rods. There is a ton of Knowledge there to learn from. Those ole boys are the real accuracy nuts in BP shooting.

The Long Range Game, is the most harshest venue to test loads and ones fouling control methods in, in my opinion, No covered firing Line, Phoenix is the toughest place, next to Raton, and My match. Here the shoe leather hits the road and one finds out real fast how well your stuff is working.

Woody's observations on his wad stack with the heavy lubed wad is very interesting, on how it stopped leading in his Shotgun. Of course we are talking about shot and a smooth bore barrel, But still it has validity, but the English when they went to shooting "Dirty" used multiple wads according to Dan's Research into the subject, for Long range. However no mater how excited I get about this lube wad stuff, that the Old Dead guys over the pond were using, I keep remembering, these Guys never shot in the dry conditions we do here, East coast and England have Humidity something that is a iffy thing here in the west or at Raton, And Phoenix?? forget humidity, think HOT.

There is a lesson to be learned in this somewhere I am sure of it.

I keep going back to Stamford Young's few brief words, They speak to me Volumes, and of a very good and knowledgeable shooter's own personal experiences. The Long Range shooters of today owe him a debt.

KW
The Bionic Lunger

[splattersmith]

sa·pon·i·fi·ca·tion definition

Pronunciation: /sÉ™-ËŒpän-É™-fÉ™-ˈkÄ

[Steve Garbe]

Bruce,

I use a blow tube and wipe with a dry patch pushed through from breech to muzzle. Works very well with my Schuetzen rifles as well as my heavy benchrest rifles. Time would probably be a factor for silhouette.

My experience with patches with solvents on a patch is maintaining a consistent bore. The dry patch takes out about 90% of the fouling and one can regulate the number of breaths. Very consistent.

Steve

[Kurt]

I like using 50/50 antifreeze with the patch hardly damp when conditions get to the point were the tube dont work anymore. With a good lube it pushes through the bore very easy and keep the bore very consistent and leaves what little lube is there and it will not evaporate like other mixes with water.