Shiloh Rifle Forums

Important info for those who load with smokeless on occasion...
Perhaps you guys knew this already...


As measured by Brian Pierce!!!

1-.450 Marlin Brass/73.5 grains of water(2.7 grains less than Remington 45-70 Brass!!!)
2-.45-70 Remington Brass/76.2 grains of water(1.3 grains less than Starline Brass)
3-.45-70 Starline Brass/77.5 grains of water(2.8 grains less than Winchester Brass)
4-.45-70 Winchester Brass/80.3 grains of water.(4.1 grains "More" than Remington Brass.)

Applies to BP also....
Gary

Lumpy Grits wrote:Applies to BP also....
Gary

Hey Gary, are you implying that, by volume, water and BP weigh approximately the same?

BTW, 4570, In a very limited comparison recently and reported on the Shooter to Shooter section of this forum, I found that Starline .45-70 held slightly less capacity than Remington. I just double-checked and verified my results with more Starline cases. When using water one has to be very careful due to the surface tension affect and can easily be misled. I used a syringe and was careful to fill each case to exactly the same level.

Wayne

The problem using water is that every case does not expel all the equal amount of water. Some retain more than others.
Weigh a drop or two of water once.

Never could figure why anybody worried about how much water would fit in a case... Powder and bullet seating depth is what matters, and other than having to dry cases out, water really doesn't prove much.

Kurt wrote:The problem using water is that every case does not expel all the equal amount of water. Some retain more than others.
Weigh a drop or two of water once.

I think the right way to do it is to weigh the case full of water. Then empty it completely by drying for a while or perhaps put it in the oven to get all of the water out. I agree that water capacity only has a limited amount of value to a reloader. Chamber size and whether or not you full length size will have some impact on it as well.

Water....Water ? Water.

Is for mixing with other bore swabbing materials to dampen patches for the management of bore fouling in black powder cartridge rifles, cleaning fired BP cases, bathing in, drinking, and, making ice to float around in your whiskey.

Then maybe, just maybe, to dampen the paper diapers for the PP bullet during that loading process if you are so inclined to waste water, paper and lead all at the same time. Yes, we do need to be more resource oriented, especially when it comes to time.

Loading black powder cartridges is best done by determining the correct powder column height, then the "VOLUME" of powder necessary to reach that height before placing the wad and then the bullet in the case.

Mac,

My loading experience runs contra to your volume test. My Starline cases hold 82.5 grains 1Fg Swiss, while I load my Remington cases with 79.5 grains of 1Fg Swiss. This is with fire formed cases, no sizing, and identical load components.

Something to think about.
MikeT

Here's the chart again:



Note, I only used one Starline case at the time but later verified the Starline data after obtaining a few more.

MikeT, Interesting, one of difference may be that the cases I used were brand new and never used. They certainly were not fireformed which, I expect, could change some of the results. And of course, although I doubt it, the manufacturers could have changed their processes. I wonder if others have experienced the same?

RealMikeT wrote:Mac,

My loading experience runs contra to your volume test. My Starline cases hold 82.5 grains 1Fg Swiss, while I load my Remington cases with 79.5 grains of 1Fg Swiss. This is with fire formed cases, no sizing, and identical load components.

Something to think about.
MikeT

Concerning checking volume with water, I agree that it's not much value, but will result in the relative volume differences which can be loosely translated to powder capacity differences.

BTW, my water volume testing technique was to plug the primer hole with a BB size plug of putty, ensuring it only plugged the hole and was not forced into the case cavity. Set the dry case on the digital scale, zero out the scale, then slowly filling the case with water out of a syringe to the level that it formed a flat surface (not convex or concave but a flat surface) at the mouth, resulting in the "tare weight" of the water. This eliminated some of the potential problems noted by others.

FWIW, note in the chart that the case weights essentially inversely tracked the change in case volume with Starline being the heaviest.

Finally, the real value of the testing to me was not the capacity differences (although interesting) but the dimensional differences of the neck. I have been neck turning my Rem. brass to remove the wall thickness taper since my .40-65 rifle chamber has a well-defined constant diameter neck (chamber ID is the same for the 1/2" long neck). Hence matching the case neck to the chamber neck so that the bullet tension is constant over the length of the seated bullet. Win. or Starline would not benefit from neck turning if used for the same chamber. It's a different story for my .45-70, which DOES NOT have a well defined chamber neck. The chamber ID increases over the length of the neck region. Therefore I do not neck turn the Rem brass for this chamber since the case wall thickness taper essentially matches the chamber taper, again ensuring the bullet tension is constant over its seated length.

Yep, I can be real "anal" when it comes to reloading and I'm convinced my reloads are the best they can be for the rifle/chambers they will be shot in. The problem is my shooting results do not in any way reflect the concerns and care I put into the reloading process. But I get as much enjoyment out of reloading as I do shooting.

Wayne

TexasMac wrote:Yep, I can be real "anal" when it comes to reloading and I'm convinced my reloads are the best they can be for the rifle/chambers they will be shot in. The problem is my shooting results do not in any way reflect the concerns and care I put into the reloading process. But I get as much enjoyment out of reloading as I do shooting.
Wayne

As for the use of water, it could be any liquid as they fill the nooks and crannies and don't have to worry about packing density, etc., as one would have to do with a 'solid' medium such as powder. Is only for comparison purposes.
Yep......... if my rounds would print on the target with equal accuracy to the effort I feel I put into my reloading I would be a very pleased with the results. Unfortunately, is a slow improvement in my scores.
As for reloading, I only do it in order to shoot. If I could purchase the same ammo for what it costs to reload, I would. Same with high power. However, in an effort to help maximize your 'enjoyment', would be happy to send you lead, components and my reloading recipes and let you load for me.

SSShooter wrote:...in an effort to help maximize your 'enjoyment', would be happy to send you lead, components and my reloading recipes and let you load for me.

Glenn, that's a very generous and unselfish offer that I'll have to pass on after giving it consider thought. What I should have said is I get as much enjoyment out of reloading FOR MYSELF as I do shooting.

But, if you expect to be shooting in competition against me in a future match, you deserve to have access to the best ammo possible so 'll be glad to accept your offer. After carefully loading it to my exacting high standards I'll even deliver the ammo to you when we meet.

Wayne

TexasMac wrote:

Lumpy Grits wrote:Applies to BP also....
Gary

Hey Gary, are you implying that, by volume, water and BP weigh approximately the same?

BTW, 4570, In a very limited comparison recently and reported on the Shooter to Shooter section of this forum, I found that Starline .45-70 held slightly less capacity than Remington. I just double-checked and verified my results with more Starline cases. When using water one has to be very careful due to the surface tension affect and can easily be misled. I used a syringe and was careful to fill each case to exactly the same level.

Wayne

NO
Gary

Let me throw a monkey wrench in the mix .Hornady 45/70 cases made for the Leverlution or what ever its called are very thin like Win. and the ones you buy in bulk are heavy like Rem. The lever gun cases are also to short for our use but the bulk ones are ok . I have used the lever cases to form 40/50bn cases .Wish I could find some more . Arnie

TexasMac wrote:But, if you expect to be shooting in competition against me in a future match, you deserve to have access to the best ammo possible so 'll be glad to accept your offer. After carefully loading it to my exacting high standards I'll even deliver the ammo to you when we meet.
Wayne

Unfortunately, am guessing even your superlative loading might not be enough. My scores have regressed over the past couple of months and are not much of a threat to anyone. Think it is time to see the eye-doctor in hopes that she can straighten up that front sight, which has developed some odd curves recently.