Shiloh Rifle Forums

Zack,

Most of the rifles listed were Sharps Borchardts, a few Rem creedmoor rollers, quite a few Hepburns, and Farrow was shooting a Ballard and the heaviest powder charge 115gs!

Vertical, is tricky thing, but when you have quite a bit of ES on your loads I usually see more vertical myself really shows at 1000 yards in my opinion.

KW.

Guys your all welcome, I want only to share this hard found knowledge and Increase our actual better understanding of the Original Creedmoor Era.

Besides............................ It wont hurt your scores.

The Lunger

Kenny, THANK YOU
Your willingness to share your research & knowledge just shows that you are a true sportsman. Along with the love you have, for the sport.
Respectfully,
Gary

Thanks Gary!

KW

Yo Kenny, you are the best. Historian also. Let me ramble on a bit about conditions and verticle dispersion of shots.

An example of what I am talking about is best exemplified by an incident that occurred (the first time to me) at the 1,000 yard line in Raton. I say the first time because it has happened since.

I think you and Jimbo savored such a moment this past year.

Prior to going to Raton of the year of this recanteur Z-2 and I took my long range rifle to the range and it held an inch and one half verticle at 600 yards for 12 shots. Not bad.

Anyway, a short time later at Raton, the incomparable Dan Theodore was on the firing point to my immediate right. We were into record fire at 1,000 yards of the National Championships. I fired a record shot which as I recall was a TEN. I think Dan also shot a Ten concurrent with my shot. Fat, dumb and happy we reloaded, lined up the sights and wah-zooo we both had dirt diggers about two feet below the rim of the berm. Unfazed by observation or results we both reloaded, did not change our sights and fired again. Both of us had more or less center hits in the black. Neither of us have an explanation as to what happened but I am convinced that the cause was conditions we did not see.

In such circumstances, it is easy to discount that shot in the dirt as not subject to ammunition failure, rather to probable wind conditions that were unseen. However, an environmental deviation of less dramatic consequence could easily be blamed on less than perfect ammo. Which, is mitigated by the experience of that rifleman with that load in that rifle.

I remember one lesson from Lige Harris quite clearly. It sort of goes like this: If you are shooting along and you have a shot that is really off call and you are inclined to make a sight correction, only take half of the correction you think necessary.

What Lige was saying, I think, was; maybe your shot was OK but the condition was not. And, we all know shooters that find a prevailing condition and try to shoot in that condition.

Going over the report from Raton, and seeing the 1000 yd only had 1 90 out of both days, and 3 x's for the high x count it's a pretty sure bet that conditions were frustrating to say the least.

desert deuce wrote:Although I have not seen the rifle or held it in my hands, a very reliable friend told me he has seen and held an original Hepburn Creedmoor that is, as he recalls, marked as 45-105-550, although it may actually be marked 44-105-550, on reflection he was not positive except for the 105-550. He is not a black powder nut like we are. I would really like to see the rifle and thoroughly photograph it as it may actually be a 44-105-550 which we would probably designate as a 44 2.6 in our current day parlance.

The original Sharps 1877 Creedmoor that I did see and hold in my hands was simply marked 45 2.4

The Rem. round in question probably in all likelihood was their .44 2 7/16" BN, or 2.4375" to be exact, which was their later Creedmoor round. Rarer than hen's teeth to see the actual ctg. today.

Kenny Wasserburger wrote:..... to holding Elevation-Vertical. Talk about some eye openers! The advice given was simple, increase the powder Charge till elevation required, and the vertical was reduced to the minimum, then use 1-2 grains above that!

Shaler's 1875 report I referred to earlier is interesting in this respect. Eight different loads were fired at each distance, and fifty (50) shots of each load fired. The criteria in assessing the load was the deviation from a horizontal line marked across the target. The distance of each hit from the horizontal was measured and the average calculated. They were seeking the load that gave the smallest vertical dispersion.

David

Zack you hit on a point,

With out any doubt, Raton has those um ahhhhh.................What the hell was that. And it usually is in the middle of the range too. It is what it is............Raton!

I had that goofy miss first day shot high it broke high top of the 9 ring was my call maybe edged the 8 I had one sore collarbone and felt it slip but it should of been in the black instead a Miss High, Steve Baldwin was pulling. So I am betting he was dead on. I made no corrections next shot was a 10 at 2 exactly on call.

Still Shot a 81 at 1000!

Kenny W.

Excellent post Kenny and interesting as can be. I too appreciate the huge effort to post the information and willingness to share for the benefit of all.
I have two questions I wonder about and if your recently discovered publication has any thing to say on the subjects.
1. Were any hardening agents used besides tin to alloy for hardness such as mercury or antimony ?
2. Does your volume address the evolution of shooting positions used such as the supine/backrest methods that were suppose to be in vogue for long range events in this general time period? Mile D. Merry Christmas!

I have tried to duplicate that reclined position. Fortunately without a loaded rifle. That position seems very awkward.

I shoot a 12 1/2 pound rifle with 79 grains of 3F Swiss and a 525 grain bullet. Recoil is noticeable but not fierce.

I can only imagine the recoil of a rifle weighing less than ten pounds and charged with 115 GRAINS of powder under a 550 grain bullet.

There were at least five major different positions deuce and hundreds of variations. Neck straps, shin straps and even teeth straps. It apparently was rather wide spread for at least part of the decade or so of intense long range interest , I just don't know if it was a passing fad for a short time or was it very much a part of the whole discipline throughout . The rifles would have to be customized to suit and still need to meet all the match rule requirements. I believe,if not mistaken, that Creedmoor Rolling blocks and 74 Sharps were factory customize for such events with heel mounted soul sights, strap purchases , etc . Mike D.

I also remember reading that lead projectiles were hardened with mercury in this time period for greater penetration on heavy dangerous game and was curious if this technology was used in long range alloys for Creedmoor shooting. Surely they must have know about antimony by this time as well for increased bullet hardness. Could be it just wasn't need with pp bullets though. Mike D.

mdeland wrote:..... the evolution of shooting positions used such as the supine/backrest methods that were suppose to be in vogue for long range events in this general time period?

I have an early reference by Captain Horatio Ross, a leading Scottish rifleman and sportsman, who made the following remarks in 1868 with regards to the back position in the UK: “The Hythe kneeling position is an admirable one for soldiers and when firing in line, but it is not good for match shooting, or for skirmishing, especially if there be a strong wind. Almost all the good shots now shoot lying on the ground flat, and resting both elbows on the ground. Some shoot lying on their backs; and a countryman of mine (Farquharson) makes marvellous scores in that position; but almost all those who have imitated him have failed.”

I have a few notes and picture on the Back Position on my web site.

David

Thanks David, those are good references and information. I had seen it before some where in one of my books and new these positions were used but not how much and how effective they were. I have also tried to get myself wound around my rifle in some of these positions and realized it would need some stocking and sight modifications to work and I doubt would ever be as steady as good cross sticks which they were not allowed to use in the original Creedmoor matches. Mike D.

I'll also add a little tidbit from Perry, page 18 - and something most of use apparently have forgotten:

It is not strictly necessary that the bullet touch the powder - still too great a vacuum should be avoided

- maybe something we should also relearn... And I'm sure there are a few other items in there.