High and low wall firing pin brakage

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mdeland
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High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by mdeland » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:18 am

Was curious how often those of you with" Walls" break original design firing pins? I read that Nieder conversions practically eliminate pin breakage but have heard the originals break from time to time. Mike D.

JDM
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by JDM » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:04 pm

Mike
With the black powder firing pin it is hard to break an 1885 Winchester firing pin. If the action is not timed right any firing pin can break. If you don't know what timing I'm talking about you had better see a good gunsmith. Mike Lewis or Eron Amer would be the ones I would recommend.
Dave Maurer

humboldt
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by humboldt » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:11 pm

I know from personal experience that dry firing a highwall with an empty chamber will break the firing pin. Stick another firing pin in it and don't dry fire it any more. Mori
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SSShooter
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by SSShooter » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:42 pm

Definitely possible and having the 'cam-over' mis-timed would make the problem worse. Couple of worn pins or toggle-link could be the problem. The biggest problem I've suffered with my C. Sharps High Wall firing pins was when they would 'set back' into the steel block the pin is fitted into rather than actually breaking. C. Sharps explained that they had a 'hardening' problem on this piece and have since reconfigured the way they are hardening the newer ones (this was last spring) and their new firing pins should last indefinitely. The new one they sent me at the time has been trouble-free in ~2200 firings. In addition, they recommend that one does not dry-fire the High Wall, so I use snap-caps for same. So far, so good. Wyoming Armory in Cody also advertises that they have a new firing pin that should prove immune to problems. Also, forum member "Woody" has a fix for used firing pins which have suffered the pin setting itself back into the pin retaining block. Hopefully, he will see this thread and comment.
Glenn

JDM
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by JDM » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:28 pm

SSS
I guess I don't understand "pin retaning block". The pin assembly is supported by the breech block and is retained with a screw. What do you mean"set back"?
Dave Maurer

mdeland
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by mdeland » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:11 pm

After building the Winder .22 I've been kicking around the need to get a spare to keep handy in case of a break . I would imagine that it is the actual pin part that most often breaks but wondered about how vulnerable the cam body of the overall pin is. Either would put you out of business in a match so guess I ought to get another one in case but I bet they don't give them away as they are a rather complex shape.
I suppose a fella could machine one but it looks like quite a job to me. Mike D.

SSShooter
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by SSShooter » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:21 pm

Dave - The "firing pin assembly" that you've used is a better description. That is, the pin is set into a machined part and the two pieces make up the "assembly". Per C. Sharps description to me of how it is made, the 'machined' part of the assembly is hardened, the pin is inserted and then swaged to hold it in into the machined part of the assembly. In my rifle, the machined portion was not hardened enough and the pin was slowly 'set back' or driven into the metal, resulting in inconsistent ignition. I had three firing pins in a row that had this problem. One lasted about 1000rds, the next several hundred and the third was bad after 20-30 firings. Their new hardening process seems to have fixed this problem with their firing pins. Believe the price is $35 from C. Sharps. Not sure what it is from Wyoming Armory.
Glenn

mdeland
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by mdeland » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:26 pm

Sounds to me like the actual pin is separate from the main body and is setting back into it. Is this the case with the newer pins ? That"s how they are repaired when the striking point breaks off the cam body of original designed pins.
The part that givs me pause in machining one is how to get the integral cylindrical top part milled to spec. The lower cam section is easily milled. Could make them in two pieces and silver solder them together but have no idea how well that set up would last.
I think A-2 would be a good steel for the body and I have found that decapping pins from reloading dies make one of the best firing pin tips I know of. Mike D.

JDM
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by JDM » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Mike
Is your 1885 a coil spring or a leaf spring? If is a coil spring it is difficult to do a Mann Neidner pin job. On a coil spring action the firing pin has spring pressure on it all the time. On a leaf spring action there is a cam on the top of the lever that takes spring pressure off the hammer the first movement of the lever. With a leaf spring action you can make a cylindrical pin with a screw flat on one side to hold it in. Just add a small spring on the front of the pin to retract it as the hammer moves back with no spring pressure on it. These Rube Goldberg Mann Neidner firing pins can be replaced without removing the breech block. The pin is very easy to make and install with no change to the block.
A Mann Neidner pin is a lot of work because it takes a new link that is longer and remaching of the hammer cam. The block needs to be drilled and tapped for bushings.
If it is a coil spring action I would leave it to a real gunsmith with hiwall expertise.
Dave Maurer

mdeland
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by mdeland » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:34 pm

Also wonder if the rimfire pins are more susceptible to breakage than center fire. My guess is that they probably are but perhaps not.

mdeland
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by mdeland » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:41 pm

Yeah, mine has the coil/torsion spring in it. It also has the keep screw for the pin vertically drilled and tapped down through the block.
Think I'll try and make one just to learn more about them. I've repaired the pin points but never made the whole assembly from scratch.

JDM
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by JDM » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:06 pm

Mike
I have never heard of a rimfire pin break. A little secret to a rimfire pin is to put a small radius on the tip. That seems to tighten the groups some.
Dave Maurer

mdeland
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by mdeland » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:08 pm

Yes, that is a good tip, also I picked up some literature on pin face shape done by SPG I think it was, and he found that the vertical rectangle shape with the edges rounded as you described, enhanced accuracy. I stoned the firing pin face in mine to the shape he showed in this article.

Woody
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by Woody » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:09 am

Mike,

I don't know about the Wy Armory pins, but the new ones from C. Sharps are now two piece like you repair broken originals. Your decapping pin repair will not last. The pin diameter is too small and the pins are too hard. Dave is correct about the "timing" of a High Wall. Proper timing virtually eliminates the movement on opening of the breech block while the hammer is still pressing on the firing pin. The repairs that I found works best is using music wire for the tip of a pin. Good ole K. Roos steered me down that road. I found the wire at McMaster-Carr. I bought a roll, (65 feet). Cost more to ship it that the cost of the material. I have not had a single pin break once repaired with the music wire. Now that I've said that, they are all going to break at once. :lol: If you want some of the wire, send me a PM with your mailing address. 65 feet is enough to do every broken pin in the US.

Woody
Richard A. Wood
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SSShooter
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Re: High and low wall firing pin brakage

Post by SSShooter » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:41 am

mdeland wrote:Also wonder if the rimfire pins are more susceptible to breakage than center fire. My guess is that they probably are but perhaps not.
That is not my experience. My rimfire (coil spring Low Wall) has not broken or had a firing pin problem in the ten years and 10K+ rounds I've put through it.
Glenn

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