Non BP question???

[cat1870]

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between Norma 203 and Norma 203B smokeless powder?
I have a can of unopened 203 that's been on my shelf for years and thought I'd might as well use it if I can find what it might be suitable for.
Perhaps MLV will make a suggestion.

Thanks,

Gary

[Straightneck]

cat1870: Norma reloading manual 2004 simply states 203-B as A specification slightly altered from the former 203, But I have a Norma reloading data pamphlet circa 1965-69 six(6) pages total covering Norma powders for rifle, handgun & shotgun. Listings for 203 cover cartridges; 220 Swift, 222 Rem Mag, 22-250, 225 Win, 244 Rem, 250 Savage,
257 Roberts, 6.5 Jap, 6.5x54 MS, 6.5x55, 7x57, 7x61 S&H, 308 Win, 7.62 Russian, 30-06, 300 H&H, 7.65 Argentine, 303 British, 7.7 Jap, 8x57 JR-J-JRS-JS, 358 Norma Mag,
358 Win, 375 H&H. All the listings only give one(1) powder charge(weight) and does not state if it is a Maximum charge or not.????? For some of the cartridges 203 is the only powder listed and some list other Norma powders faster and slower. Powder list: Norma 200, 201, 203, 204, 205,,, 200 fastest--205 slowest
A few examples comparing 203 listings circa 1965-69 to 203B listings 2004: circa 1965-69 list psi all cartridges in 24" barrel,,, 2004 does not list psi
6.5x55 bullet 93gr FJP 203 45.2gr 3150fps 41200psi----6.5x55 bullet 85gr Sierra HP 203B 45.0gr-47.0gr 3196-3409fps bullet100gr HP 203B 41.0gr-43.5gr 2904-3150fps
7x57 bullets 110gr SP 203 45.8gr 3067fps 47100psi, 150gr SPBT 203 44.1gr 2756fps 47100fps, 160gr SPBT 203 44.2gr 2707fps 50000psi, 165gr SPRN 203 42.3gr 2490fps 47700psi
7x57 bullets 120gr Hornady SP 203B 44.0gr-47.0gr 2828-3038fps, 120gr Nosler BST 203B 43.5gr-45.8gr 2904-3045fps, 139gr Hornady SP 203B 42.0gr-44.7gr 2717-2890fps
There' a look at the two(2) powders.... If you have any of the cartridges listed for 203 powder, I'll be happy to list the loads shown. Hope this helps. I find it odd that the circa 1965-69 list 203 for only one(1) weight bullet in 308 Win and list 203 for all weight bullets in 30-06

Mason

[cat1870]

cat1870: Norma reloading manual 2004 simply states 203-B as A specification slightly altered from the former 203, But I have a Norma reloading data pamphlet circa 1965-69 six(6) pages total covering Norma powders for rifle, handgun & shotgun. Listings for 203 cover cartridges; 220 Swift, 222 Rem Mag, 22-250, 225 Win, 244 Rem, 250 Savage,
257 Roberts, 6.5 Jap, 6.5x54 MS, 6.5x55, 7x57, 7x61 S&H, 308 Win, 7.62 Russian, 30-06, 300 H&H, 7.65 Argentine, 303 British, 7.7 Jap, 8x57 JR-J-JRS-JS, 358 Norma Mag,
358 Win, 375 H&H. All the listings only give one(1) powder charge(weight) and does not state if it is a Maximum charge or not.????? For some of the cartridges 203 is the only powder listed and some list other Norma powders faster and slower. Powder list: Norma 200, 201, 203, 204, 205,,, 200 fastest--205 slowest
A few examples comparing 203 listings circa 1965-69 to 203B listings 2004: circa 1965-69 list psi all cartridges in 24" barrel,,, 2004 does not list psi
6.5x55 bullet 93gr FJP 203 45.2gr 3150fps 41200psi----6.5x55 bullet 85gr Sierra HP 203B 45.0gr-47.0gr 3196-3409fps bullet100gr HP 203B 41.0gr-43.5gr 2904-3150fps
7x57 bullets 110gr SP 203 45.8gr 3067fps 47100psi, 150gr SPBT 203 44.1gr 2756fps 47100fps, 160gr SPBT 203 44.2gr 2707fps 50000psi, 165gr SPRN 203 42.3gr 2490fps 47700psi
7x57 bullets 120gr Hornady SP 203B 44.0gr-47.0gr 2828-3038fps, 120gr Nosler BST 203B 43.5gr-45.8gr 2904-3045fps, 139gr Hornady SP 203B 42.0gr-44.7gr 2717-2890fps
There' a look at the two(2) powders.... If you have any of the cartridges listed for 203 powder, I'll be happy to list the loads shown. Hope this helps. I find it odd that the circa 1965-69 list 203 for only one(1) weight bullet in 308 Win and list 203 for all weight bullets in 30-06

Mason

That would be great,thanks.
Calibers are .308, .30-06, with 150 to 190 Gr. bullets and the 220 Swift and .22-250 with 52-55 grain bullets...

[bruce m]

cat,
norma 203 has a burning rate similar to reloader 15 according to adi who make many hodgdon powders.
don't know about 203 b.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Straightneck]

cat1870: I don't know if these loads are Maximum charge weight or not, as only one charge weight is listed. if you have the Norma 2004 Reloading Manual you can compare them to the listings for Norma 203B powder and make judgments for adjusting charge: if not let me know and I will post some for comparison, my eyes are burned out tonight. On a side note my Father turned me loose in the reloading room before I had my drivers license at 16 and this is the pamphlet he taught me with: loading for a 1903 Mannlicher schoenauer in 6.5x54MS built in the mid 1920's and a Mauser safari rifle with full length stock in 8x57 also built mid 1920's

Norma load data circa 1965-69 Norma powder 203 (N203) 24" barrels
for the 308 Win. 130gr bullet listed N200 powder and 150gr bullet listed N201

220 Swift: bullet 50gr soft point semi pointed .224" Dia., N203 40.9gr, 4110 fps, 52100 psi
220 Swift: bullet 55gr soft point semi pointed .224" Dia., N203 39.8gr, 3840 fps, 54200 psi

22-250: bullet 50gr soft point semi pointed .224" Dia., N203 38.8gr, 3800 fps, 48500 psi
22-250: bullet 55gr soft point semi pointed .224" Dia., N203 38.0gr, 3650 fps, 48500 psi

.308 Win: bullet 180gr soft point semi pointed .308" Dia., N203 44.3gr, 2610 fps, 49000 psi

30-06: bullet 130gr soft point semi pointed boat tail .308" Dia., N203 57.5gr, 3280 fps, 47000 psi
30-06: bullet 150gr soft point semi pointed boat tail .308" Dia., N203 54.7gr, 2970 fps, 44500 psi
30-06: bullet 180gr soft point semi pointed boat tail .308" Dia., N203 50.ogr, 2700 fps, 45300 psi
30-06: bullet 220gr soft point round nose .308" Dia., N203 47.3gr, 2410 fps, 43700 psi

[cat1870]

Great data. Thanks....
No I haven't a Norma pamphlet so the comparisons would be great.

Thanks again.

Gary

[Straightneck]

cat1870
I will get the info posted this evening, it may be late PM, but you'll have it by Sat. morning.
The Norma reloading Manual is a hard cover 432 page book published in 2004, their first ever in over 100 years of supplying reloader's. Lots of interesting info. one section on primers quite interesting showing pressure and duration of pressure at different temperatures. I use Norma data and powders for my 6.5x54MS and 8x57 because most all
U S SAAMI data is anemic for many of the older European cartridges and the Norma powders perform well.
The old circa 1965-69 pamphlet is only three (3) pages approx. (9"x12") printed on both sides folded and stapled
AND if you need to compare N203B with the N203 I posted before I get some N203B posted go to http://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunition-Academy/Loading-Data
Aim Small--Miss Small, good shooting to you
Mason

[cw50-70]

I have a small ring Mauser in 30-06 that loves old N203. When I started working up loads I had access to an indoor range and I was shooting at 50 yards due to my eyes and the iron sights. I was being kind to the small ring and started with 46, 47 and 48 grains of N203 with the 165 grain Nosler ballistic tip boat tail. I thought I had a real problem when I only saw one hole in the target after 3 shots with the 46. Then when the 47 made a ragged hole I realized what had happened. Once recovered and measured, the 46 grain group was 1/16 inch c-to-c, the 47 was 5/16 , and the 47 was 1 inch. Needless to say that can of powder and that box of bullets became dedicated to that rifle. You might try backing off max a little and get a surprise.

[Straightneck]

cat1870:;
I would be curious to see a comparison of the N203 and the new N203B in one of the cartridges loaded with the same charge weight and bullet weight across a chronograph.
This should give what you need to load-up with N203, it looks like the circa 1965-69 data was max loads
Norma Reloading Manual 2004: According to CIP: 24" Barrel 1-14" twist: Case---Norma: Primer---Winchester Magnum (WLRM)
220 Swift: bullet 50gr Norma SP---.224" Dia., N203B 36.0 gr---38.6 gr, 3711 fps---3868 fps-----------Bullet # 65701
220 Swift: bullet 52gr Sierra MK---.224" Dia., N203B 35.0 gr---37.3 gr, 3586 fps---3793 fps-----------Bullet # 1410
220 Swift: bullet 55gr Nosler BST--.224" Dia., N203B 35.0 gr---37.o gr, 3550 fps---3698 fps-----------Bullet # 39526

Norma Reloading Manual 2004: According to CIP: 24" Barrel 1-14" twist: Case---Norma: Primer---Winchester Magnum (WLRM)
22-250 Rem: bullet 50gr Norma SP----.224" Dia., N203B 33.0 gr---35.3 gr, 3599 fps---3760 fps---------- Bullet # 65701
22-250 Rem: bullet 52gr Sierra MK----.224" Dia., N203B 33.0 gr---35.0 gr, 3507 fps---3711 fps-----------Bullet # 1410
22-250 Rem: bullet 55gr Nosler BST---.224" Dia., N203B 32.0 gr---34.5 gr, 3425 fps---3602 fps-----------Bullet # 39526

Norma Reloading Manual 2004: According to CIP: 24" Barrel 1-12" twist: Case---Norma: Primer---Winchester Magnum (WLRM)
308 Winchester: bullet 150gr---155gr List powders----N200,N201,N202
308 Winchester: bullet 165gr Swift A-Frame List powders--N201,N220
308 Winchester: bullet 165gr Hornady SP-------.308" Dia., N203B 43.0 gr---45.0 gr, 2592 fps---2710 fps-----------Bullet # 3040
308 Winchester: bullet 168gr Sierra MK---------.308" Dia., N203B 42.0 gr---44.8 gr, 2598 fps---2733 fps-----------Bullet # 2200
308 Winchester: bullet 175gr Sierra MK---------.308" Dia., N203B 41.0 gr---43.3 gr, 2441 fps---2648 fps-----------Bullet # 2275
308 Winchester: bullet 180gr Nosler BST--------.308" Dia., N203B 41.0 gr---43.2 gr, 2448 fps---2566 fps-----------Bullet # 30180
308 Winchester: bullet 180gr Norma Vulcan----.308" Dia., N203B 42.0 gr---44.0 gr, 2470 fps---2615 fps-----------Bullet # 67653
308 Winchester: bullet 180gr Norma Oryx-------.308" Dia., N203B 42.0 gr---44.1 gr, 2451 fps---2597 fps-----------Bullet # 67638
308 Winchester: bullet 180gr Norma Alaska-----.308" Dia., N203B 42.0 gr---44.0 gr, 2480 fps---2625 fps-----------Bullet # 67548
308 Winchester: bullet 180gr Swift A-Frame-----.308" Dia., N203B 41.0 gr---43.3 gr, 2441 fps---2562 fps-----------Bullet # ???????
308 Winchester: bullet 190gr Sierra MK-----------.308" Dia., N203B 40.0 gr---42.6 gr, 2444 fps---2566 fps-----------Bullet # 2210
308 Winchester: bullet 200gr Norma Oryx--------.308" Dia., N203B 40.0 gr---42.4 gr, 2297 fps---2434 fps-----------Bullet # 67639

Norma Reloading Manual 2004: According to CIP: 24" Barrel 1-10" twist: Case---Norma: Primer---Winchester Magnum (WLRM)
30-06 Springfield: bullet 150gr Norma FMJ----------.308" Dia., N203B 50.0 gr---53.8 gr, 2874 fps---3051 fps-----------Bullet # 67651
30-06 Springfield: bullet 150gr Nosler BST-----------.308" Dia., N203B 50.0 gr---53.2 gr, 2897 fps---3028 fps-----------Bullet # 30151
30-06 Springfield: bullet 165gr Hornady SP----------.308" Dia., N203B 50.0 gr---52.5 gr, 2592 fps---2828 fps-----------Bullet # 3040
30-06 Springfield: bullet 168gr Sierra MK------------.308" Dia., N203B 50.0 gr---52.8 gr, 2644 fps---2867 fps-----------Bullet # 2200
30-06 Springfield: bullet 180gr Nosler Partition-----.308" Dia., N203B 48.0 gr---50.9 gr, 2480 fps---2713 fps------------Bullet # 16331
30-06 Springfield: bullet 180gr Nosler BST------------.308" Dia., N203B 48.0 gr---50.6 gr, 2484 fps---2707 fps------------Bullet # 30180
30-06 Springfield: bullet 180gr Hornady SP-----------.308" Dia., N203B 48.0 gr---50.9 gr, 2500 fps---2720 fps------------Bullet # 3070
30-06 Springfield: bullet 180gr Norma Oryx-----------.308" Dia., N203B 48.0 gr---50.5 gr, 2493 fps---2720 fps------------Bullet # 65638
30-06 Springfield: bullet 180gr Norma Vulcan--------.308" Dia., N203B 48.0 gr---50.8 gr, 2510 fps---2720 fps------------Bullet # 65653
30-06 Springfield: bullet 180gr Norma Alaska---------.308" Dia., N203B 49.0 gr---51.6 gr, 2497 fps---2697 fps------------Bullet # 67648
30-06 Springfield: No listing for 190gr bullet,---200gr & 220gr list slower powders

enjoy shooting Aim Small & Miss Small
Mason

[cat1870]

Thanks Mason....

Gary

[Straightneck]

More than welcome Gary,
it is good to help someone, usually I'm the one asking for help and information

Mason

[cat1870]

More than welcome Gary,
it is good to help someone, usually I'm the one asking for help and information

Mason

I'll work some of this powder with my 308. Let you know how it turns out.

Cat