Who is winning matches with PP Bullets?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don and Bruce might of nailed it:


If Harlin came out with Metford's 530 or 540 gr bullet with it's very ever so slight cupped base?

Now we be taking and Trying

KW

[bruce m]

I have just been working with a mould maker (he did all the work!) to design a bullet.
it is interesting how tooling capabilities must be taken into account.
cnc machinery helps with its ability to programme in a design for custom purposes, but its economy comes with large scale production.
if customers are prepared to pay a bit extra for programming and lack of scale, and a mould maker is prepared to go that bit further in thinking, custom moulds are an option.
it is however probably a minority market.
with regard metford's bullet, the cupped base is of less interest than the nose profile and length of nose in calibres.
with any moulds, quality will in the long term sell itself.
one poster here who knows a bit about metford bullets is martinibelgian. (gert)
keep safe,
bruce.

[Distant Thunder]

The design of a PP bullet should be geared toward it's intended use just as a GG bullet would be. The very long nosed PP bullets like the first ones I made for long range target shooting would not serve well in a hunting application. Their nose shape requires hardness that doesn't work the best for hunting. Shorter nosed, hence softer, designs would not be my first choice for long range target work, but would excel for hunting. This is as true here as it is with GG.

The important thing in either case is the fit to the bore. One size does not fit all! Any line of paper patched bullet molds would have to offer several different diameters allowing the shooter to match the cast diameter and patching paper used to the bore of each rifle. This would be true for either hunting or target designs. You could end up with 3 or 4 diameters in both hunting and target designs. Then factor in the different calibers! Now you're talking about quite a few molds to offer. I don't know how you would know up front which design, diameters, or calibers would be more in demand?

The fit of a patched bullet to the bore is somewhat more important than when using GG bullets, at least in my experience. With GG as long as your not under size and it will chamber it will work and in most cases work well. PP requires a snug fit, but not so snug that the patch is damaged. I am talking here about bullets patched to bore diameter. Bullets patched to groove diameter are much the same as GG when talking diameter.

Either way, Harlan, it could be a bit tricky figuring just where to jump into the PP molds. I have some thoughts on it if you are interested.

DT

[mdeland]

Don't put words were they ain't DT. Raton is simply a much bigger pond to swim in competitively is all that was implied.
Wasserburger, attack the message and counter the argument, don't start with the name calling, as tends to be your habit.

[Don McDowell]

A genuine Metford bullet might be a good draw for the 45 shooters, don't think I'ld abandon my 44's for it tho.

[Distant Thunder]

Mike,

Bigger pond! YES it is. Just don't discount the good efforts being put in by those shooting in the smaller, regional "ponds"!

DT

[mdeland]

That is precisely the same level of pond I have had the opportunity to swim in DT . Believe me, when I won a regional midrange match, it was a big deal to me! I'm keeping a pretty close track on the nationals as to who is winning and who is moving up in scoring order as well as trying to find out what they are shooting.
The mistaken assumption is that one bullet type is loved and the other hated but the truth is the opinion is based solely on national level match performance, not emotion.

[Distant Thunder]

One more thing that seems to get lost in the shuffle, "Lodi ain't Raton"!

I'm not sure what words you feel I put in the above that aren't already there? You did mention Lodi specifically in a separate post like it was something that was weighing heavy on your mind. How was that going to escape notice? I think your words were rather clear. I don't believe there are many who would think winning a regional match would mean you would win a national match. That being said, PP have won the last 5 long range regional matches at Lodi. That is something to take note of, even if it is Lodi. I have no doubt that if put in the right hands at Raton PP could win that match too. I also have no doubt that mine are not the right hands!

[Distant Thunder]

I do believe that PP have a definite advantage ballistically over GG. I have seen this in matches while shooting along side GG. That advantage means more points, more points means more wins. Sooner or later it will happen, even at Raton. It's still a shooter's game that is why it will take the right shooter shooting PP to pull it off. That shooter may be there already or he may come from one of our "small ponds" some time down the road, but it will happen.

DT

[mdeland]

"Winning at Lodi with PP bullets some how doesn't count, at least not here." is what I was referring to. I simply do not think that! It is a tremendous accomplishment to win at any regional level but it is not as high a level of competition as Raton.
If all the same shooters competed at Lodi as do in Raton, I would think logic would dictate the same result. That result would be in favor of the grease bullet, no? Mike

[Don McDowell]

There is a lot of talk about Paper Patch Bullets. I'm would like to know what matches are being won and by whom with pp.

Been thinking about that,, and how many times did Kenny win the scope class at your match with patched? I'm pretty sure Dick Savage did it at least once, if not twice.

[Distant Thunder]

I suppose it would favor the GG for the same reason it does at Raton, the best shooters are shooting GG! Or another way to say it would be that most of the best shooters are shooting GG, which increases the odds that GG would win. There are simply more in the race. Now get one of those guys to shoot PP and I think the odds would be slightly in his favor, but only slightly. There are far to many variables to put to much hope in the bullet alone, patched or grooved. I just feel that in my little pond I have an advantage with my PP. Even if I don't have an advantage, I look way cooler with PP. Of that I have no doubt.

Anyway I'm still learning how to make this PP work. My current rifle/load/bullet combo is more accurate than I thought was possible. Once I get this rifle more figured out it will be very interesting to see just what it can do with these paper patched bullets.

This is a great sport, there are lots of way to play the game, I'm doing it my way, but I am never so set in my way that I can't learn from someone else.

DT

[mdeland]

When they can prove themselves superior and are used by the top shots in the country as grease bullets currently are, than we all will migrate to them in droves and all you pp shooters can say I told you so! Mike

[mdeland]

Well said DT, and I'm with you 100 percent!

[Aero]

I couldn't resist this. Not trying to stir the pot and I have no particular opinion one way or the other and would certainly never say one is better since I've never tried paper patch. If I can ever figure out GG, I might consider it, but at this point I usually have more questions than answers after most shooting matches. This is simply an observation based on actual rifle shooting that I thought was very interesting.

A while back I rechambered a barrel on a CPA Stevens. The original chamber was cut with one of Dan T's designed PP reamers. A very tight 45-90. I used a reamer I designed based loosely on the chambers that Browning used in the Creedmoor rifles. 45-90 also. My reamer cleaned up all but the very end of the original chamber just ahead of the rim. The rifle's owner, a multi-time National Champion, used less powder and a GG bullet in the rechambered barrel. As I remember it, the bullet was very similar in nose profile and weight. Main difference was one had grooves and one didn't. Again, my memory on these things ain't too good, but I do remember him saying he was using 4 or 5 min less elevation than the old PP load on a much cooler day and he did say "so much for ballistic advantage of PP". This happened with the first shots out of the rechambered gun and and I don't know whether he has shot it more or not.

-Eron