Shiloh Rifle Forums

There is a lot of talk about Paper Patch Bullets. I'm would like to know what matches are being won and by whom with pp.

Believe 8 out of the top 10 front stuffers used PP bullets at the last long-range nationals at Oak Ridge. But, they use weird rifles for their shooting, so why not weird bullets as well.

I suppose a better question might be what difference does it make? There's more folks "loosing" matches shooting greasers (if there really is such a thing as loosing a match) than there are folks shooting patched bullets.
The point really isn't winning or loosing, it's being in the game.

But if you take a look at the top finishers at Lodi they're pretty well loaded up with patched bullet shooters.

Don
You are right, its all about enjoying the game. I am curious to see how the PP and lubed bullets compare in performance in the match settings. But for me its actually more that, I trying to find out how much time and effort I should put into PP designs for my bullet mold line. Even though the biggest part of the shooting sports is having fun, for many shooters it's also about doing their best and having the best componants to achieve their goals. I would like to hear from shooters that feel their scores have improved from using paper patched bullets, no defference or have dropped.
We don't always hear about shooters load data from most matches so that's why I ask, "Who is winning matches with PP Bullets"?

We may learn a bit more about this as Buz asked for load data from the Quigley match winners (10). Upon learning this information, I likely will find myself more confused than ever.
Ah well, load a greaser, load a patcher, greaser, patcher, etc. Hey, should one gas check a patcher? Gotta cover as many bases as possible, belts and suspenders, yuh know.

Harlan paper patching is a lot more work than grease grooves. It takes much more attention to detail during the match than a greaser. I'm getting better accuracy out of the patched bullets than I've gotten out of most grease groove bullets. Most folks that shoot the patched bullets do so because they like it. Going by match scores and the like don't really tell you much about what happened at a match. I've seen match scores that show a shooter actually getting as many as 5 less hits on a gong target than what really happened. Some folks don't pay much attention to equipment lists, case in point is one match where 15 of the top 30 or so shooters were using brand x powder, but yet the match director said later nobody uses that brand of powder, it's not much good... So much for the effort of filling out an equipment list.
As for how much effort to put into your patched bullet mould offerings... Only your customers can tell you that, but as there are way fewer folks that are willing to put the time ,and effort into shooting patched I wouldn't think there's a huge market share out there, as BACO, Brooks, and KAL already have a ton of offerings with pretty strong following. Personal and rifle preference also plays a huge part, some folks get by great with bullets patched to well under bore in traditional styles, others like the nearly groove diameter patched bullets in more trendy modern designs. So I'ld think that unless you unveiled some new secretweapon super successful bullet "match winners" aren't going to be lining up in droves to switch bullets.
I'ld almost bet there's more folks shooting patched bullets for hunting than there are "match" shooters using them.

Harlan Sage wrote:...trying to find out how much time and effort I should put into PP designs for my bullet mold line...

Since probably the vast majority of PP shooters are traditionalists, a line of moulds that would probably be a safe bet would be one that copies exactly the original designs, i.e., tapered & cup based that patch to bore diameter. Just my opinion and worth what I charged you for it.

Yeah, I have been hearing that the PP bullet was going to take over since I started back in 1998. Hasn't even come close on a national level to this point but you can be sure if it wins even once you will most certainly know as it will be shouted from the house tops by it's ardent supporters.
PP bullets are a traditional and important part of our sport and will rightly remain so but they have to prove themselves superior to greasers in the trenches of match competition, to take over and to this point they have not been able to keep up with the front runners using grease bullets, at national match levels.
Facts are stubborn things! Mike D.

One more thing that seems to get lost in the shuffle, "Lodi ain't Raton"!

So winning matches at "Lodi" shooting paper patched bullet somehow doesn't count, at least not here? That is interesting!
I paper patch because I like it and, for me it's working. I don't believe I consider it better than grease groove. I not sure it's all that much more work, though it is probably a bit slower in the loading process, not so much in the shooting though.

DT

DT,

What doesn't count, is the Duplexing mid-range, knob's, posts. You guys Have done well with PP.

Won my second national Scope championship 2013 with PP, also 2009, 2013 winter nationals scope championship with pp.
I have 4, yup 4 America's Cups all won with PP. Yeah that don't count.

Enjoyed the 2008 5@200 match At Raton no small amount, smallest group all week was shot with PP and still stands as the smallest PP group ever Shot, sadly that match is no longer held.

Highest score to date in the mile match was shot in 2013 with PP, and a new record of 8/10 hits at a mile.

And let us not forget the 1000 yard match at Forsyth won A couple years back by Orville with PP.


KW

Harlan, my ppb loads are evolving as allways like my skill level. I shoot ppb's exclusively because they are the best, that's why all those old dead guys used them in the 1870's and 80's at Creedmoor and greasers were available then ,but those old boys only used the best they could get. Those are the" facts". Just as plain as the fact that I'm not a great marksman either. I've personally wondered for quite awhile that if I could put my gun and loads in the hands of someone like you who is a great shot , just how well and better you could make my gun talk than I do. So here we go , when you and the wife show up at the Mt 1000 and get set up and your sight settings for your guns all done. You and I could go back to the line and you sure are welcome to run 20 rds thru my Shiloh with it's original style ppb chamber with my loads to do some discovery for yourself. Be right obliged, to let you see the light with my gun and ammo. No cost to you, just your time and fun . Make up your own mind, with your own personal experience. Best offer I can make you. Got to be better than listening to some windy guy from Alaska. bobw

KW,

PP have been making a good show of it for the past 4 or 5 years at Lodi. We have several people shooting PP at our matches and more often than not PP will take two of the top three places. And it has not been all one shooter winning when it comes to PP either.

The May and June matches are NRA regional matches, only straight black is allowed. The fall match (August lately) allows for other powders. I don't like it, but that's the way that match is. If it brings in a few more shooters, as they hope, it may be worth it. I will be shooting PP and black, for me that's the only way to go!

To be clear, I do shoot GG bullets plenty, when and where they suit my needs. For long range and mid range paper targets I feel PP is a better choice.

DT

it is proven that a pp bullet will have 60% wind deflection (6/10) of a greaser same wt and same nose shape.
this alone gives them a big edge in long range shooting.
it is a bit like going from a round nose to a vld in an fclass or palma rifle.
most of the extra work in succeeding with pp involves thinking and experimenting.
loading and shooting is similar to gg.
there is no question the creedmoor shooters chose pp in preference to gg.
from Harlan's point of view, what is the market?
from the converted's point of view, there is no competition.
a comparison of buffalo arms' offerings could be a guide to the market requirement.
keep safe,
bruce.
p.s. I have always wanted to try a bullet of the metford design. not one a bit like it, but one built on metford's principals.
finding out those principals is the hard part.

Actually ol Bob may have hit the nail real close to the head.. Harlan has a patched bullet in his lineup, the best thing to do would be for him to start loading and shooting that bullet, and see what the fuss is all about, and maybe generate a good bit of interest in his moulds in the process..