some questions about my first BPCR reloads

[Quigley_Up_Over]

Hello,

I have a Shiloh Sharps .45-70 BPCR, and am gearing up to make the first black powder loads for it.

I'm all set up with my brass, bullets, dies, and powder.

I'm mainly concerned about safety for both me and the rifle, and have read that with black powder, the C.O.A.L. and even the case length is *extremely* important, and that if they are wrong (namely the C.O.A.L. being too short), you can blow up the gun.

First of all, is that really true, and if so, why? I guess if I can understand how and why the bad stuff happens, it's easier for me to avoid it.

Second, how do I determine, with perfect precision, the required C.O.A.L.? Should I Cerrosafe the chamber, or it their an easier and better way?

I'm also a little intimidated by the whole volume versus weight thing with B.P. It is my understanding that I can't simply measure out 70.0 grains of powder and drop it in, rather I need to fill the volume up 100% and a little beyond, then compress. But then how is this done?

I do have Mike Venturino's book, going to start reading that. Just wanted to get some initial direction from this forum.

I bought the rifle and reloading stuff almost 5 years ago and am just now getting around to reloading and shooting it!

Thanks all.

[Don McDowell]

The COAL won't blow up your rifle whether it's to long or to short when using black powder.
70 grs (by weight) of 2f powder is a good place to start, you may want to vary the charge up and down some to refine the load, but you won't know that until you fire on a good target from a good rest and see just how the thing groups.
Fouling control is vitally important to shooting good groups, blowtubing will work most times provided you have a good lube and a good powder, wiping is the way to go when the temps get hot and the humidity gets low.

[Lumpy Grits]

The COAL won't blow up your rifle whether it's to long or to short when using black powder.
70 grs (by weight) of 2f powder is a good place to start, you may want to vary the charge up and down some to refine the load, but you won't know that until you fire on a good target from a good rest and see just how the thing groups.
Fouling control is vitally important to shooting good groups, blowtubing will work most times provided you have a good lube and a good powder, wiping is the way to go when the temps get hot and the humidity gets low.

What Don sez, is a great place to start
Gary

[Quigley_Up_Over]

Thanks gentlemen, much appreciated!

So let's say I wanted to get technical with the COAL and really wanted to make it just right, just for fun, and ultimately for accuracy. How would I go about measuring it properly?

Also, I guess the blowing the gun up thing is a myth?

[Lumpy Grits]

"Also, I guess the blowing the gun up thing is a myth"

Pretty much-real BP has far less PSI than any smokeless powder does.
Gary

[Jody Reb]

Quigley what I did to determine the COAL for my money bullet was to insert the bullet by itself in the chamber and push it in the rifling until the bullet rested on the grove that it was supposed to. Then I took a flat tipped cleaning rod and gently inserted it in the barrel until it touched the end of the bullet. I marked the rod and then pushed the bullet out of the chamber. I then closed the block and pushed the rod down until it was touching the block and marked it again. After withdrawing the rod I took some calipers and measured the distance between the marks and that was my COAL. It's easy to do and if you measure correctly it will be dead nuts correct.

Dale

[SSShooter]

So let's say I wanted to get technical with the COAL and really wanted to make it just right, just for fun, and ultimately for accuracy. How would I go about measuring it properly?

Your suggestion of a Cerrosafe chamber cast will work. A few thousandths short is generally not detrimental to accuracy while a few thou long can have the effect of an unintended crimp.
While a bit dated, Garbe & Venturino's BP loading book is an excellent place to start. Lots of good info.
http://www.shopspg.net/SPG-Lubricants-B ... lubeBP.htm

[Don McDowell]

Thanks gentlemen, much appreciated!

So let's say I wanted to get technical with the COAL and really wanted to make it just right, just for fun, and ultimately for accuracy. How would I go about measuring it properly?

Also, I guess the blowing the gun up thing is a myth?

Quite frankly if that Shiloh has not been messed with , you'll be doing good to be able to seat most non tapered bullets with any grease grooves exposed. Start out by compressing the powder and wad just far enough to let the bullet seat right to the driving band, and start shooting. The target will tell you whether or not you need to obcess about the COAL. Loading blackpowder rounds is a whole different ball game than loading smokeless and jacketed bullets in a modern highpower rifle.

[desert deuce]

The latest Black Powder Cartridge News has an article describing and illustrating how to determine the correct starting point of powder by volume which you can then convert to weight, which is more or less the technique that I use or rather have evolved into through trial and error because for me it works. IF, you use the same granulation and lot of powder and load by volume. There is no substitute for consistency when loading either black or white powder.

In the same issue is an excellent article about case preparation which is way more involved than what I do, yet it is by all accounts THE WAY if you really want to eliminate variables, especially the point about the 'feel' of different pieces of brass when you run the expander in the neck of the case.

Was out at the range yesterday pulling targets for son. Have some new R-P brass in 45-70. Some of it shorter than 2.08" in length that is on it's second firing and was not resized but has been annealed twice and still has some tough necked cases in the bunch.

Nineteen shots of that 45-70 pretty much held around half a minute of vertical at 600 yards and if it did not the reason was obvious and not related to case length.

It was a new lot of both Swiss 3F and 1 1/2. The same volume of 1 1/2 weighed 2.5 grains more than the previous lot and the new 3F weighed 3.0 grains less than the old lot. But, loading by volume the results on target were as good as one can expect yet from past experience one of these rifles is capable of one inch groups at 300 yards and with the new lot we ain't there yet, yet, 1 1/2 inches to 2 inches is actually better than I can hold day in and day out so the real variable is possibly the shooter not the rifle and load.

IMHO I think it easy to lay the blame on less than optimal results on the target with failures of rifle and ammunition when that is not actually where the fault lies.

Then, in all honesty, who spends much time on a rifle they are having a tough time getting to shoot well? One of my greatest failings is not staying with that rifle until I get it figured out. I just have this limit to frustration that I have to deal with and tend to pull a favorite out of the rack that always shoots well and leave the recalcitrant child at home.

When all is said and done the real variable is how much "QUALITY" trigger time the rifleman spends at the range with a rifle they like and a load the rifleman has confidence in, so, we go back to that critical six inches between the ears as the real variable and developing a shooter, rifle and load that will shoot to call at whatever distance.

[DAVE ROELLE]

HI Quigley:

You'll find that folks here discuss powder charge WEIGHT in grains-----------not volumetric-ally, don't be spooked about loading black powder------ITS SAFER THAN THE OTHER POWDERS-------------no difficulty with overcharging, many of us routinely use 80 grains of powder in 45-70's-------most black powder's like being compressed !!!!!!!!!!

You'll also find clean-up easier-------plain old water works wonders-------------get plenty of quality patch material for both wiping and clean-up

This is easier than its represented----Don's given you a great starting point---------HAVE FUN

Dave

[MikeT]

If your bullets have had the lube on them for 5 years, you will probably be ahead of the game by changing the bullet lube on those bullets.

In case you have not compressed powder before, do not use the bullet. It will deform and then you will probably not get it to chamber as it should.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[Quigley_Up_Over]

Thanks again for all the very helpful replies.

So where do the myths of blowing the chamber out when there's an air space come from? How did all that start anyway?

[SSShooter]

You may be thinking about some of the original cast frame Ballards or "over cartridged" Low Walls and such that folks load with either that evil smokeless powder or duplex (BP & that evil smokeless) loads. They aren't myths when folks load inappropriately, and there are plenty of pictures to show same, though I am unaware of any "blow-ups" with any of the quality modern reproductions like Shiloh, C. Sharps or DZ Arms, etc.

[Steve crawford]

Do you mean Ringing the Chamber??????. I have read reports of that happening with air space in the case. I don't think the gun actually blows up from air space. If you have a barrel obstruction that is a different matter. Also you can over charge a BPCR very easy with smokeless powder. I have not had any of these problems yet and I am new to this also.

Steve

[RMulhern]

"BLOW UP THE GUN"!

"Catch phrases can stop THINKING up to fifty years!"

Oliver Wendell Holmes