Shiloh Rifle Forums

Powder charge setup. Seems like when you get past 2.1 inches in case length, an uncompressed powder charge, (as in breach seating) can pull the case apart. Have done the same thing, even in 40-65 cases, but more often with Starline 45-90. Two things to do. First: Anneal the Starline cases at least once. They need it. Second: Compress the powder. I use a funnel that my compression plug will fit through. That way I can overfill the case, and compress through the funnel to the point that I can seat a wad. I can then breach seat without blowing cases. Overwise they will. I can post a photo if that will help.

Woody

To add to what Woody said...

Breech seating with black powder can be harder on cases than loads with bullet seated in the case. Hotter/finer powders make the problem worse. I no longer use FFFg when breech seating and am much happier.

Chamber shape is also a factor. When breech seating with chambers that have a 45 degree transition I get minimal case stretch. When I breech seat in rifles with no 45 degree transition I get more case stetch.

Chris.

Woody...
As a curiosity...when you see the case stretch happening that you described, how far down the case is it happening? Since there is no bullet "pulling" on the inside of the case, I just wondered if it was random (anywhere) or if it occurred in the same general area and where it was?

Eric

The Starline 45-90 would fracture about one inch from the mouth and be driven about 1/2 inch into the rifling. That's with a beach seated bullet. When I played with uncompressed charges and breach seating in my 40-65, the cases would fracture and stretch about the same as the 90. It didn't always happen and not all cases would stretch, but it happened with enough frequency, that I have pretty much given up breach seating any caliber. As a final bit of info, even my 32-40 would stretch and separate when the powder charge was uncompressed. Not with the frequency of the larger cals. I've not played with it in my 45-70's.


Woody

Very strange this stretching problem. No one around here has a problem with breech seating uncompressed BP. Never gave me a problem nor any of a number of other benchrest schuetzen shooters. Calibers for .32-40 up .45-70 or even .45-100 all seem the same in that regard. I guess someone forgot to tell us

Brent,

I don't have case separation problems when shooting fixed ammo. I do carry a broken case extractor with me when at matches and have used many times when others have separated. What they are doing that's different and causative, I don't know and have not been able to pinpoint. Since this thread started thinking it might be LDPE wads, I'll state, based on my experience, that I don't believe LDPE wads to be the culprit.

Woody

I shot all last year with LDPE and never had the slightest problem. Not sure why others do. I remember at PHX once Klaus was having separations - multiples for some reason. He had trouble getting one of them out but I gave him a paper patched bullet to run from the muzzle down and it did the trick.

I remember finding a number of .45 necks laying on the 900 yd gravel. Several folks must have been having a bad day that way.

Hmm...interesting.

I've only ever stretched on case that I was aware of. It was a fixed GG load. I had gotten behind on time in a silhouette match and had taken to 1 wet patch, and being pressed for time, decided not to mop the chamber. I got that last round off, barely under time...it was a miss of course. I pulled a shiny new 40-65 case out of the chamber that stretched .500" showing me all the neat little features of the throat, leade and a good portion of the bore. Needles to say I always mop my chamber...

Eric

Brent have you tried FFFg with breech seated ammunition? I ripped several Starline .38-55 cases in half the first time I tried it. Most of the cases that did not rip in half were stretched by more than 0.015".

That was in my "worst case" rifle. A CPA .38-55 using long Starline (0.0075" thick at case mouth) with a case of FFFg Express and a veg wad and a breech seated bullet. That rifle has no 45 degree section in the chamber, just a 6 degree taper from the outside of the case mouth so there isn't anything to stop the case growth. Using Fg or FFg I've not lost a case, although they grow slowly with FFg.

I have a .38-55 highwall that I breech seat in and have zero case growth. That chamber uses the thin Starline brass but has a 45 degree transition in the chamber. It uses FFg.

I have a few .32-40's that I load with Swiss 1.5 Fg or FFg and I have a number of cases with hundreds of firings on them and have never trimmed or annealed them. I think the difference is that my .32-40's use thicker brass ( around 0.010" at case mouth ), coarser powder, and the chambers have a 45 degree angle in them.

I only compress my charges minimally, maybe 0.050" max.

The biggest case I breech seat in is the .38-50 Remington Hepburn and it has no issues.

I also don't think it's an LDPE problem. I use a ton of those. Well not literally, but I use them a lot without problems . I think it's the fine powder granulation combined with breech seating.

Chris.

This past season I separated several cases in my 40-82 using 73 grains OE 3f powder and a .06 ldpe wad. Didn't have any problems when using a card or veg wad. Personal opinion is that the 3f load compressed the ldpe wad enough that it expands enough to grip the case wall enough to pull the case apart. Never had a problem with hot loads and ldpe wads in a 45 caliber rifle. Just my experience.

gunlaker wrote:Brent have you tried FFFg with breech seated ammunition? I ripped several Starline .38-55 cases in half the first time I tried it. Most of the cases that did not rip in half were stretched by more than 0.015".

Probably, but I can't say for sure without reading through some books. If I did, it was only in a .38-55 Zischang pattern Borchardt. For sure the brass didn't stretch appreciably since that has never happened in that rifle. But I can't honestly say I have shot 3 f in that gun w/o reading my books.

Hi everybody,

Powder was compressed with a Baco powder compression die.

I made some tests and the broken LDPE were fund only when I used the Chrony !!!

Thank you for your advices and attention !!


Gerald

That would explain the cut wads.
THANKS for the update.
Gary

Try some felt wads stamped out of felt cowboy hats. I purchase them from thrift shops. I have used some real nice resistalls!!!!

I breach seat and do it quite often. I breach seat using very long compound funnel leads from 3 degrees to 5 degrees into 1.5 degrees. This almost makes some of my chambers look like they have a lot of freebore.
I also use plastic wads. More in just the last two years then previously. One over the powder and one under the bullet with a very soft lube wad between the two. I have to say that I don't pull case necks apart and case stretching is almost none existing. After seral shots fired I will run them through the seizer and they barely take out the chamfer inside the case mouth. And my wads are over groove diameter to keep my very soft lube from getting into the powder when it's hot out.
In the past I used to have to trim my cases quite often. I contribute the stretching to cases to tight to the chamber end and soft case necks. I used to trim my unseized brass .004-5" short of the chamber end and I used to size the brass. This would lengthen the case longer then the chamber was deep and I feel that when the charge goes off the bullet has not cleared the case mouth before the bullet expended with the case to the chamber wall and it also crimped the case mouth with the bullet still in the case and this pulls the soft annealed case neck sometimes to the breaking point.
Now I only anneal the case when I get a new batch or when I see signs of soot blow back. My case stretching stopped after I started doing this.
If the plastic wads are the culprit I would get a lot of case failure. I would be more concerned using long cases or head space problems with rim thickness less then the rim recess is cut with case failure.
When I see a sign that the case mouth looks like it has a slight crimp after it is fired it's time I trim them.

Kurt