I bit the bullet, flat based '63 cartridges are here to stay

gmartin · Post by **gmartin** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:40 pm

Despite my stubborness,
Due to the insistence from many people in posts' past I HAD to try making and shooting a classic style paper cartridge in my '63 carbine. Not known for being concise I'll cut cut to the chase. Thanks to a fellow column user I was given instructions for "The Sharps New Model Combustible Cartridge", here after known as the " New Model 1859" or "New Model" cartridge. I followed instructions with the materials I had which differed only slightly from protocol. My result was a combustible cartridge of SubWay type sandwhich paper chamber length of 1 3/8 " by near chamber width large enough to "bell" and insert a bullet for a total length of 1 7/8 ". Actually I used Two different bullets which required two sizes of bullet end peices on my taped .50 cal. dowel. I used an old Shiloh mould and its flat nosed 400 grn. bullet, and a RCBS Hoch .540 minie' adjustible bullet in this case somewhat lighter, both glued to the end of the cartridge. The Shiloh bullet was backed by 60 grns. 2fg. Goez and was tight, and the Hoch by 50 grns. 2fg. Goex with tissue to make it a tight fit. After construction of 58 rounds allI could say was "these better be worth it!' These first made were time consuming after the end results of some too large, small, and just getting it right. Wow! Both bullets fit flush with the chamber's begining or needed just a slight push to seat. (some few were a 1/16" short or so) Ignition was immediate and every round fired instantly. It was as if I was using a metallic cartridge rifle. Just by this alone I was impressed. At 75 yards, the only range I had access to this windy day, I managed the best shooting I've ever done. One typical 17 round group (3 shot strings, wiped bore, plus one 5) was 5 1/2" verticle by 3 7/8" horizontol, with one 3 shot group of touching bullets save for 1 by 1 1/4 ", and several 2 shot rounds touching save for a disapointing shot lower by 3". (darn). Both bullets shot much the same. Now I'm thinking of different bullets with the adj. mould, different powders, different this and that. I had a ball! Lubing the things with out contaminating the paper was a bugger. Got to figure that out. I have read of original cartridges going to 2 1/16 " so I've got still more to think about. Was worried the bullets wouldn't be seated but they all were. Thought I'd share this, much more to learn I know.

It worked, Gregg

Todd Birch · Post by **Todd Birch** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:31 am

Gregg my friend, you amaze me......

Kinda been wonderin' whatcha been up to of late. Now I know - you've been makin' up rounds for your '63.

Congrats on your success! You've been working hard at it.

In surfin' the net today, I ran across a .50 .515 design by one of the name makers with a gas check base. This might make creation of paper rounds a little easier with the rebated base - if I was so inclined, but I ain't! There's also the question of the bullet obturating enough with the gas check base....
Danged if I'll tie onto the base of a 'Xmas tree' bullet with itty bits of thread either, bein' the lazy cuss I is.
Having had the success with my powder-only cartridges behind the breech seated bullet, I'm going to rest on my laurels and those of the rifle. The only thing I'm gonna do is buy a class mould that puts out a bullet as close as I can get to that produced by my plebian Lee aluminum mould.

It works and the results I got exceeded my expectations for the rifle and the bullet. Can't ask more than that.

Had the shear plate off my rifle for the first time t'other day. Can't say as I thought it was all that grundgy behind it which says something 'bout the fit. Re-installing it was a matter of putting the block face down on a nylon cutting board and tapping the back a few times with a rawhide mallet.

All in all, a very happy experience so far. I've been thinkin' on a Shiloh carbine in .50-70 but I may just go for a '63 carbine instead. A friend has one in .45 (Farmingdale). He and I may be talkin'.

Todd

Amigo · Post by **Amigo** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:27 am

HI

Great to see more people getting into shooting the 63 Sharps.I ve
enjoyed shooting them for years and am currently waiting on a 63
Sporter which should be ready in a couple of months Can t wait to
take her out.
While waiting for my Sharps to arrive I m in the process of making
a deal for a Larry Romano 1851 1st model percussion maynard carbine replica.Theseare supposed to be extremely accurate.It comes with a tang sight and a26 inch barrel and I have plans on putting a 30 inch barrel on it.It will be fun to see how the Maynad and the 63 sharps stand up against each other.
By the way for anyone who is interested Larry Romano will soon be
producing an 1882 metallic cartridge version of the Maynard target rifle.
I for one am glad when another of the old classic single shots are made
as it just keeps our sport growing.

Todd Birch · Post by **Todd Birch** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:56 am

Hey Amigo!

Good to hear that there is someone else out there who gets pleasure with the '63, the first Sharps. Them new fangled ca'tridge guns is just a passing fad.
I gotta get over my phobia of making up full paper cartridges. Just too finicky and labour intensive. But, compared to deburring flash holes, weighing cases, checking wall thickness,indexing, trimming, sizing, neck expanding, powder trickling, compressing, seating, depriming, washing (pant, pant, pant.....) maybe we're getting off lightly.

If I ever run across a Smith or Maynard carbine I'm gonna have to add it to the battery.

Todd

gmartin · Post by **gmartin** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:54 pm

Say Todd,
Written to you lately, said alot, hope I answered some questions. About the above; You DO shoot well with a starter and folded cartridges as I always used. Oh these are for me very labor intensive but the results were astounding. What would they do for you? Can't help but wonder, still intend to send you the same instructions I have to construct these things. GOT to be better for hunting! Folowing cleaning gun I developed breech problems which may or may not be resolved. But the cartridges are worth it and I'm making them better and a bit faster now.
See ya, Gregg

gmartin · Post by **gmartin** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:10 pm

Amigo,
Was hoping you'd read the post. FYI, In Lyman's Muzzleloaders' Handbook, 1st. ed., 1976, is a great article By George C. Nonte entitled "Shooting Civil War Breech Loaders". He has great info. on shooting original and repica guns including the Maynard. More accurate than the Sharps? Keep us posted on your project Maynard if you desire.
Thanks for the reply, Gregg

gmartin · Post by **gmartin** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:19 pm

Todd,
Forgot, In my Navy Arms catolog it lists the Smith calcary carbine in .50 cal., and the artillery carbine in .54 cal. Pedersoli I believe for $664.00 but you get the shaft in Canada.
Yours, Gregg

Amigo · Post by **Amigo** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:46 pm

Hi Greg

Glad your having fun with your 63.Sharps.I think us 63 owners should have our own section on this forum, maybe we can convert some of those
74 guys over to our side.We could even have our own slogan shoot the
original, shoot a 63.
Thanks for the info on the maynard I will have to see if I can find a copy
of that book.Will keepyou guys informed on my progress with the maynard and my 63 sporter when I get them to the range.

Jeff

Todd Birch · Post by **Todd Birch** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:55 pm

Gregg/Jeff

Hey, I like that! Why not?

It's gotta be a challenge compared to the meticulous preparation of brass cartridges loads.
Besides, the ca'tridge shooters cheat once in a while with smokeless (choke, gasp, snort....) loads and hybrid 'duplex' loadings! ...."whatever would the Queen think?.....
Those simply aren't options for '63 shooters. A chamber full of 3031 ain't gonna do nothing good for a '63.

As far as getting a Smith this side of the medicine line, there are a couple of importers who bring the replicas into Canada, including one right in 'Amigos' back yard in Nova Scotia - Loyalist Arms.

Todd

gmartin · Post by **gmartin** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:46 am

Todd, Jeff,
It's not our web site but a '63 column sounds great. Info. on bullets, cartridges, etc., noy usually seen. Todd, get over your phobia of flat based cartriges. The most blah part I find is inserting tissue filler behind the minies' and lubing the darn things. Peice work at my leisure a bit at a time eases the rest of it.
Good Idea, Gregg

mrrangerman · Post by **mrrangerman** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:12 am

Hey all,

You got my vote on a 63 forum, I have a 63 millitary on order it's supost to be started the first of April. So I've been trying to find all the info I can on makin loads up for it. A forum just for the 63 would help keep all the info together and easyer to find. Maybe Kirk could just change the name on the "TESTING" forum to "63 HOWTO" or something like that. As I've never seen a post in that forum at all.

stay on target

Todd Birch · Post by **Todd Birch** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:55 am

Hey, why not?

The '74 shooters ae constantly re-inventing the wheel and relearning what the old timers knew.
It's even more of a 'black art' for the percussion guns.

Since the '63s are back in production again, we oughta pool our knowledge on experiments; what works and what don't.

Sure beats learning all the answers the hard way.

I hope you're all sittin' down when you read this, but I've had it suggested to me that Pyrodex pellets (as used in 'gag, choke, puke, vomit'...., inlines) might work in a '63'!!!

Don't yell at me - I'm just the messenger.

Todd

OMD · Post by **OMD** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:02 pm

Hi Todd,

As I've previously indicated elsewhere in this forum, pyrodex pellets worked fine in my 1863. However, I think the fouling is "harder" then that of BP and I suspect that BP yields greater accuracy -- I haven't experimented enough to confirm this suspicion.

I used the 60 grain .54 caliber pyrodex pellets; for my BP loads I pefer 45 grains of FFg. I don't know whether using a 50 grain .50 caliber pyrodex pellet in a .54 caliber 1863 would creat any problems.

Take care,
Owen

gmartin · Post by **gmartin** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:14 pm

Owen,
I've just begun to create compressed flatbased '63 cartridges with bullet inserted. Being compressed but not of exact chamber width do you suppose this would cause problems with pyrodex? It is simply much more available to me.
Thanks, Gregg

Drain Rock · Post by **Drain Rock** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:32 pm

Gentlemen

I too would like to see a column on just 63s. It would save me time searching through the listing trying to glean info. on loading the original sharps.

My thanks to the gentlemen from Main (RS) and Canada (TB) for breathing new life into the discussions on loading of these guns. I’ve dug mine out-of-the safe, third owner and still unfired, and started paper cartridge loading operations.

Christmas-tree and wad-cutter bullets from aluminum molds.
I don’t care for aluminum but they do work if babied a bit. I may have to find a source for iron molds and different bullet designs if these two types shoot well and the hook is set.

Harold Lewis

Shiloh Rifle Forums