Bullet Dilemma

[Castaway]

I’m headed to Colorado in the fall for my first elk hunt. My primary rifle will be a 300 WSM with a premium Barnes bullet. The dilemma is with my 45-70. I can consistently keep 5 shots in 6” at 300 yards using a bore-riding, Hoch bullet. My concern is expansion and lack of a wide meplat for “slap” on the elk. The meplat is for practical purposes non-existent, only 0.2” as it’s a nose pour mould. Bullet alloy is 1:20, drops at 525 grains and clocked a little over 1,200 f/s at the muzzle. I have a Lee 500 grain Government bullet which I’ve decided to not use since accuracy doesn’t hold past 200 yards. I’m now hesitating taking the 45-70 at all. Thoughts?

[bobw]

Make some at 1 in 40 alloy and see how they shoot. Go to 1 in 30 if you have too for the accuracy. Next unless they are soft big bullets at low velocity don't expand much so you should plan on breaking bones like shoulder or spine. You are a better man than most of us if you feel you can make a vital shot at 300 yds with 45-70 trajectory. .bobw

[JonnyV]

If you want to go with a cast bullet, this might be a better choice....

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_det ... et=46-430V

This design gave very good accuracy out of my GBL guide gun. Personally, I would not take a 300 yard shot with a 45-70 unless I shot that rifle a LOT.... The load I ran out of that gun was 47 gr H-322 with a standard LR primer, Starline brass. Gave 1750 fps, and very consistent. Good luck on your hunt!! Let us know how you do!

[77 sharps]

Get a Lyman 457193 mold (Graf’s) cast 20/1 and DGL lube. Also get a small ballistic range compensating range finder. Personally I’d use a PP bullet about 420 grains. Also, you don’t need to be able to shoot a 6” group at 300 yards to kill an elk. 2 1/2 MOA is more than enough.

[Don McDowell]

Your Hoch bullet will work fine.BUT elk don't stand still and the winds in elk country can be tricky, so 200 yards should be considered the absolute max with your 45-70 and 300 yards should be a last resort with your 300 at an unwounded unspooked elk. Elk aren't bullet proof despite common internet knowledge but they can take a hell of a lot of punishment, which makes good shot placement paramount.
Having said all that , Colorado has probably the lowest success rate in the country on elk, so the chances of you even taking the safety off is pretty minimal.

[SSShooter]

I’m now hesitating taking the 45-70 at all. Thoughts?

You are correct. If you are thinking of shooting at anything past 200yd (absolute max) with your 45-70, leave it at home. Your 300WSM is a terrific elk round. Zero it at 200yd, get to know your hold-over/under well and best of luck in getting a trophy elk.

[77 sharps]

Just out of curiosity, where does the 200 yard barrier come from? Is it from experience or is it something that you read?

[bpcrshooter62]

HI well i dont know butt i have personally shot a buffalo at 400 plus yards with a 40-65 loaded with a cast 30-1 lead bullet and black powder and it was a one shot kill so if you are saying they do not have enough knock down power at more than 200 yard i would say you are very wrong sir !!!! jmo have fun and keep hunting and shooting

[Don McDowell]

Just out of curiosity, where does the 200 yard barrier come from? Is it from experience or is it something that you read?

Experience over 60+ years in elk country as both a hunter and a licensed professional hunter herder. Not to mention 10's of 1000s of rounds down range out of sharps rifles beginning way before the Quigley movie came out... It's not about the ability of the 45-70 to kill at that distance, but it is about the ability to be able to put the bullet where it needs to go in a hunting situation. Elk hunting ain't like on the 30 minute infomercials on the tv channels, and there ain't no concrete shooting benches with targets at set distances in the elk land.

[Dennis Armistead]

Most of the time I won't chime in on hunting questions but this one seems right up my alley. I live in elk country...trophy class ones and I only hunt with a Sharps these days. My primary hunting rifle is a 26" .45-70 for elk, lion and deer. For bear I use a .50-70. My .45-70 load is a 500 gr. govt. round cast at 40:1. I don't want the round to "smack" or crater the outside of the shoulder area, but I want deep double penetration of the lungs or chest area. Two bleeds are better than one, or in the case of a Texas heart shot, a .45-70 500 gr. round nose will go completely through an elk lengthwise. Keep the distance to 100 yards, no more than 200 yards so the point-blank range of an elk won't be a problem. (18-24 in.) If you feel that you can't get that close, than stick with the high power .300. It's a great hunting caliber also. Good luck.
Dennis

[Don McDowell]

Well said Dennis

[77 sharps]

It’s unfortunate that the BPCR chat rooms are dominated by target shooters. There are virtually no discussions on loading proper hunting ammunition or how to properly manage the rifle. It’s been over 10 years ago that Bill convinced me that keeping shots under 200 yards is just silly. Currently my maximum range for taking a shot at game is 350 yards. I’m confident that my shot will land within a few inches of the intended spot. I know that there’s others that can do the same but it seems to be a secret how to do it. While my Sharps rifles lack the muzzle velocity of the 300mag, I find it to be a more liable killer.

[desert deuce]

Donnie Ray and Dennis are Elk Hunters with a lot of ivories under their belts. They parley good advice based on experience.
On the other hand I have a rule of thumb I use when helping new prospective big game hunters prepare for a big game hunt.
Yes, the first shot kills more big game than all the others. Shooting inanimate objects is way different than shooting something breathing.
You see under field conditions when it has hair on it, it is not so much the arrow as it is the Indian.
That said, a heart shot elk can and does act like it wasn't hit and run till he takes a breath, even with the first shot centering the heart.
Most off the time though, they don't go far at all.
Think of both a Muley and Elk's heart as a five inch diameter circle. Paint that 5" cardboard circle red. From what distance can you hit that 5" circle with the first shot every time, five times in a row? Resting between shots.
Time is a factor, if either animal gives you a 4-6 second window time wise to shoot, knowing you are around, count yourself lucky.
So figure your off hand 4-6 second shot on that 5 inch disk (don't fudge on the time)
Same thing kneeling, sitting and prone over your backpack. In these three positions start with the rifle at shoulder but not aimed in.
If you miss the first shot you get a zero for that shot, that distance, no second shot. You just failed that shot at that distance.

Most fair shots (No, I am not talking about experienced long range competitors) when shooting under field time constraints may look something like this: Off hand 20-30 yards, Kneeling and sitting 40-50 yards, prone over backpack 40-75 yards. Have yet to see but one hit the 5" disk much beyond 100 yards first shot and he was more than an average shot and just that one shooter.

Now if you really want to go real, run 50 yards 3/4 speed with the rifle, drop down do 10 pushups and then sight over your backpack at that 5" disk and you will get a pretty good idea of what you can do with that rifle and at what distance under hunting conditions. You only get max 6 seconds when you pick up the rifle to release the shot after exercise.

Most folks were observed with a scoped centerfire high power rifle. You might try this with your WSM before you have a go with the 45-70

[JonnyV]

Good advice.

[Don McDowell]

I’m headed to Colorado in the fall for my first elk hunt. My primary rifle will be a 300 WSM with a premium Barnes bullet. The dilemma is with my 45-70. I can c

A bit more info may be helpful. Colorado's season thing is sort of complex. Are you going with an outfitter, or one of the Ranching for wildlife tags? Over the counter tags, or a draw tag? Which season? and what area?
If with an outfitter it might behoove you to take the rifle discussion up with them.
Ranching for wildlife, you're only going to have one or two days to hunt that ranch.

Which season is going to determine a lot of the rifle choice, as even in the first season after the archers and muzzleloader hunters get thru fuzzing them up the elk are going to be pretty skittish, and very nocturnal.
None the less you're only going to have about 5 days max to hunt, and the chance of you being one of a thousand orange men is large.
Area is going to determine a lot of things, as most of Colorado's elk country is going to be well above 7000 ft, and with you coming up from Florida unless you're able to be there about a week ahead, your muscles are going to be screaming for oxygen well before you have to scramble up the side of a mountain.
Lots of things go into planning an Elk hunt when you don't live there.