Cody,jackrabbit wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:26 am Hey Kenny, I wish I had more to add to this conversation. Thank you for starting it, I have found it very interesting.
My one thought is that I always figured Dan T had thoroughly wrung out the ballistics of the bullets and had found the money bullet profile superior. I know most of his notes and data are gong, but from what I know about him, I guess I have a hard time believing he would have wasted any time on a nose design that might have been inferior to an existing design? Maybe he didn't get to test it as thoroughly as he wanted to before he passed? I had always assumed Dan had done all of the leg work and there wasn't any reason to question what he found as superior, which I thought was the money profile.
Also, I thought I remembered seeing Doc Lay had some good data showing how much flatter the money profile flew than other designs. I wonder if he still has any of that info or it could be found on the forum here?
Thanks again, Cody
Dan studied various nose profiles and alloys, Metford’s papers and research was were Dan was led, I believe and why he settled on his particular alloy choice, of 95% lead 2.5% tin and 2.5% antimony. This is also where Dan settled on his version of the Metford Bullet nose shape, what we call the money. I know I did some of that research also, and Dan and I shared this back and forth. Dan felt, that at our velocities we shot that anything pointier than the money nose was not worth testing. Plus the probability of nose slump grew greater with a less supported nose.
For our bullets, the straw I alluded too in my earlier post, is in all probability the tin and antimony. The bullet’s compressive strength. I tend to lean towards the conservative side, less antimony using the 95-5 solder for my tin but only to harden my 16-1 alloy from John Walters down to approximately 14.5-1. I think too much of a good thing ie antimony can be a real thing.
Dan also gravitated towards smaller calibers, 38-35 due to the excessive recoil of the bigger 45’s. I can tell one thing a 40 caliber Money in the 40-82 can usually hang with the bigger 45’s most days. But… in real twitchy condition I have seen it crash and burn. Dan wasn’t infallible, he wasn’t always right but he damn sure came close to being so, more often then not.
He did applaud or Heavy gun venture that I put forth from the tales of the Tolloffson Rifle, in 45-110 no less. This came to be and my Dora in 16 twist was the fruit of that venture, Bryan, Jimbo, Michael, and myself built these rifles. Dora took home the mail in 2018 at Raton midrange Prone, posting the top score even at 600 yards against everyone. Using my original Paul Jones Money Bullet, that was specifically made for the 25# Rifles. However it crashed and burned in the single day of Creedmoor. I firmly believe now that I didn’t have the right powder charge for that bullet, which I got from Jimbo. In 2016 at the Byers NRA Regional I used my version of the Money at 518 grs for the midrange, a cross fired 10 cost me and I took second behind Jack Odor. That would cost me a silver in the agg. I used my version of the Money the 446535M for the longrange portion, taking 3rd. And 3rd in the agg by 4 points. Jimbo took gold, Zack Silver, and myself the bronze.
One point of interest, something our engineer friends will find of interest, my load for midrange was 102.0 grs of 1.5 olde Eynsford, about 1436 fps at the muzzle. Bullet weight is right at 529 grs. Dave Gullo reported on day one that my bullets were still supersonic at 300 yards in the pits with an audible crack. No one else’s were. That load won the 600 yard line day one and produced a 3rd at 300 with A 99-2x, and a 3rd at 500 day two.
The same load in 2017 took second in Alliance with 10-1 alloy bullets. But in the spring of 18 didn’t do well in Phoenix, so I parked the bullet. I now believe that I wasn’t going fast enough so I will test it at Byers next weekend, at 800 yards. For 900-1000 I will be shooting my old Money 446545M that’s been sized to fit Dora, same bullet I used at Byers in 16, with good success.
Final note: the elliptical DDPPE bullet that Jim K, and Arnie, helped me design, I shot my highest score at alliance with it this past May and tied Bryan Y. I have also shot my highest scores with it in my Creedmoor match in 2021. Last year I took second in the money match wit it. Yet I have never bettered my mile score than when I shot the 446545 out of the Hell Bitch, which is a 18 twist.
At 1.508 inches long, conventional thought is that the bullet is too long for that twist, yet it holds the record for 8/10 hits at a mile in a single relay with 2 bulls and 6 outers.
Perhaps a Dual Diameter pp bullet with the money nose is in my future.
Dan was driving hard at using patch to groove bullets vrs patching to bore, it was what he was testing at the time of his passing.
Kenny W.