Re: What am I doing wrong here?
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:58 pm
OP here. Lots of great responses! I'll try to answer all the questions posed so far in this post so bear with me as this will be wordy.
On annealing- I annealed all of the cases first, then lubed with RCBS case slick rolled on a pad, FL sized, then washed and dried. FWIW, the case lengths on 5 randomly picked cases was 2.40" on the nose. Again, they chamber empty in the rifle so I don't think the cases need trimmed. If they do, what do you guys recommend? 2.395"?
On powder compression- As Patchbox noted, these were dummy rounds so no powder so that variable is out. I had ordered a compression plug on order and it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.
On nose diameter and touching the lands- No marks on the 330 Gould or the 405 HB. There were some on the 500 grain Schmittzer. That I'm not surprised as it's a long, fat nose. I did the method of determining OAL by using a cleaning rod from the muzzle to the closed block and again with a loose bullet pushed gently into the lands and carefully measuring everything and found that my dummy rounds (which I previously seated to the bottom of the top driving band for each bullet) weren't that far off in terms of bullet seating depth. I made a second set of dummy rounds (again, no powder) and even tried a different expander (a .456" RCBS from a .45-70 set instead of the stock one in my Lyman set) and had the same issues with all three dummy rounds. It might be the nose for the Schmittzer but it's definitely not for the 330 Gould and the 405. I love that photo of the homemade OAL guage- I'll have to make one of those.
On sizing- The 330 Gould I sized to .458", which is how it measured with an analog micrometer. The Schmittzer had been sized and lubed by Lyman but I was surprised to find they were nearly .460" at the base, as was the 405 HB, which I loaded dry and unsized for grins. I knew I was taking a chance with the as-cast 405's but I wasn't expecting the Schmittzer to be that diameter. I'll have to run both of them through my .458" sizer die on my 4500 and see how that changes things. Given that the Gould was having problems and it's such a short bullet, AND it's the correct .458", it may not be the diameter.
On lengthening the case with the FL sizer die - I measured all the OAL's of the 3 NEW dummy rounds, and then I ran each of those puppies through the Lyman FL sizer (with the decapper removed) where they felt like they got sized. Again, same issues failing to fully seat. So I ran them in again, and this time I ran them ALL THE WAY. The OAL didn't seem to change (at least, not to the extent my calipers picked it up). This time the 330 and the 405 chambered, a little snug but they would extract without the rod. The Schmittzer seated a little easier initially but took a good strong thumb push to seat home, and then it would not come out even with thumb pressure on the extractor end. I had to use the shotgun cleaning rod again to tap it out. And yes, this time it had obvious rifling marks so I'm confident the nose is engraving the rifling.
On flaring- Unflared brass chambers fine. If I flare the bare minimum so that I can start any of the three bullets, the empty case will make it about 3/4 of the way in and leave the last 1/2" hanging out. This tells me it's a diameter issue from the bullet expanding/seating, not the FL sizer, which brings me to.....
On the taper crimp die- unfortunately I don't have one. Just the roll crimper. I may need to pick on up. Hopefully that solves the issue as I'd rather spend $30 on that instead of $70 on a Redding FL sizer, which doesn't seem to be the issue based on the empty cases chambering.
So from tonight's experiments, I conclude the Schmittzer needs sizing and probably deeper seating. The 405 and the 330 will work being sized to .458" but unfortunately still need to be fed through the FL sizer to squeeze them down to chamber. Or, I need to try a taper crimp and see if that addresses the expansion at the top.
I think that answers everybody's questions/observations. If I overlooked any, please chime in. As long as my method doesn't result in pressure spikes or case separations I think it will work although I'd like to avoid the extra sizing if I can. Kirk- I PM'd you with my cell # so feel free to call me tomorrow if I'm still missing something.
Thanks guys. I feel like I'm getting this narrowed down a little. LB
On annealing- I annealed all of the cases first, then lubed with RCBS case slick rolled on a pad, FL sized, then washed and dried. FWIW, the case lengths on 5 randomly picked cases was 2.40" on the nose. Again, they chamber empty in the rifle so I don't think the cases need trimmed. If they do, what do you guys recommend? 2.395"?
On powder compression- As Patchbox noted, these were dummy rounds so no powder so that variable is out. I had ordered a compression plug on order and it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.
On nose diameter and touching the lands- No marks on the 330 Gould or the 405 HB. There were some on the 500 grain Schmittzer. That I'm not surprised as it's a long, fat nose. I did the method of determining OAL by using a cleaning rod from the muzzle to the closed block and again with a loose bullet pushed gently into the lands and carefully measuring everything and found that my dummy rounds (which I previously seated to the bottom of the top driving band for each bullet) weren't that far off in terms of bullet seating depth. I made a second set of dummy rounds (again, no powder) and even tried a different expander (a .456" RCBS from a .45-70 set instead of the stock one in my Lyman set) and had the same issues with all three dummy rounds. It might be the nose for the Schmittzer but it's definitely not for the 330 Gould and the 405. I love that photo of the homemade OAL guage- I'll have to make one of those.
On sizing- The 330 Gould I sized to .458", which is how it measured with an analog micrometer. The Schmittzer had been sized and lubed by Lyman but I was surprised to find they were nearly .460" at the base, as was the 405 HB, which I loaded dry and unsized for grins. I knew I was taking a chance with the as-cast 405's but I wasn't expecting the Schmittzer to be that diameter. I'll have to run both of them through my .458" sizer die on my 4500 and see how that changes things. Given that the Gould was having problems and it's such a short bullet, AND it's the correct .458", it may not be the diameter.
On lengthening the case with the FL sizer die - I measured all the OAL's of the 3 NEW dummy rounds, and then I ran each of those puppies through the Lyman FL sizer (with the decapper removed) where they felt like they got sized. Again, same issues failing to fully seat. So I ran them in again, and this time I ran them ALL THE WAY. The OAL didn't seem to change (at least, not to the extent my calipers picked it up). This time the 330 and the 405 chambered, a little snug but they would extract without the rod. The Schmittzer seated a little easier initially but took a good strong thumb push to seat home, and then it would not come out even with thumb pressure on the extractor end. I had to use the shotgun cleaning rod again to tap it out. And yes, this time it had obvious rifling marks so I'm confident the nose is engraving the rifling.
On flaring- Unflared brass chambers fine. If I flare the bare minimum so that I can start any of the three bullets, the empty case will make it about 3/4 of the way in and leave the last 1/2" hanging out. This tells me it's a diameter issue from the bullet expanding/seating, not the FL sizer, which brings me to.....
On the taper crimp die- unfortunately I don't have one. Just the roll crimper. I may need to pick on up. Hopefully that solves the issue as I'd rather spend $30 on that instead of $70 on a Redding FL sizer, which doesn't seem to be the issue based on the empty cases chambering.
So from tonight's experiments, I conclude the Schmittzer needs sizing and probably deeper seating. The 405 and the 330 will work being sized to .458" but unfortunately still need to be fed through the FL sizer to squeeze them down to chamber. Or, I need to try a taper crimp and see if that addresses the expansion at the top.
I think that answers everybody's questions/observations. If I overlooked any, please chime in. As long as my method doesn't result in pressure spikes or case separations I think it will work although I'd like to avoid the extra sizing if I can. Kirk- I PM'd you with my cell # so feel free to call me tomorrow if I'm still missing something.
Thanks guys. I feel like I'm getting this narrowed down a little. LB