Shiloh Rifle Forums

I know this may be stupid question for some, but is there a difference between 45-70 and 45-70 government cartridges? Bear with me, I'm learning........

Tom

You know there really arn't any stupid questions, there are sometimes some pretty stupid answers though. The 45-70 and the 45-70 Govt are the same cartridge no difference at all.

Any time you come up with a question you just ask away, that is the whole purpose in this board. To help steer the new guys in the righjt direction hopefully.

Gunny

Gunny has it right, there was a time when there was different loadings available for the guns chambered 2.1 inch, using black powder, the heads were stamped 45-70 Govt. to indicate the load was the same as supplied to the military. I have cases dating from the late 1880s-1890s and some were marked by the two digits 45 and some marked 45-70 G. most are marked 45-70 Govt. and I have one from Frankfort Arsenal marked cryptically as .45 II.......I still do not have any data on this one. I have some "Sharps" marked cases, one is a complete round with a paper patched "Postell" looking bullet.

Thank you, Gunny and TYRVR. I appreciate the advice.

Tom

Actually, the 45-70 is several distincict cartridges that just happen to use the same case. To us single shot black powder shooters, it is the 45 x 2.1. In this configuration we often load round nose and pointed bullets that weigh 500 grains or more, with a cartridge OAL sometimes exceeding 3 inches.

Our friends who shoot lever action rifles usually call it the 45-70 and they can't use the cartridges described above. The lever rifle requires a FN bullet and limits the OAL to 2.55 inches in order to function thru the action. Bullets seldom go heaver than 405 grains.

The 45-70 Government designation goes hand in hand with the Springfield trapdoor rifle. To add to the confusion, due to problems with troopers complaining about excessive recoil, especially in the carbine, Springfield came up with the 45-55-405 cartridge (not to be confused with the lever action cartridges). In 1884 the trapdoor rifle was chambered for the 45-70-500 which used a bullet practically identical to the present Lyman 457125.

For those who have to use smokeless powder, things get even more confusing. Most manuals seperate the 45-70 into three categories according to the strength of the rifle's actions -- but that's a different story.

I heard that if you are buying commercial ammunition that if it is marked on the box ".45-70 Government" it is safe for all rifles in good condition such as the trapdoors but if it is marked ".45-70" without the word government it is probably loaded hotter, for the Browning Hi walls, Rugers, and Siamese Mauser conversions, and is not to be used in the older style actions. I think Federal was offering ammunition loaded a lot hotter than standared .45-70 government and the boxes were marked "Not for use in antique styled actions".
Anybody else hear of this?

Regards, Dave

Dlemaster, I've never heard of any major company loading the 45-70 beyond its SAAMI specifications. There's just too much risk involved in case somebody slips one of these rounds into a trapdoor. Even a trapdoor in good condition is still a weak action.

Charlie, There is an after market ammo manf that makes some stout 45-70 loads. A sudden attack of CRS prevents me from remembering the name. Getting old is hell. Rbump

Bumper
That is exactly my problem!!! CRS
But I'm sure I remember reading something in one of the gun mags a few years ago about their doing the performance tests. If I remeber correctly one of the loads they used had a 300 grain bullet.
I certainly hope someone remembers "Who, What, When and, Where so I'll know I'm not completely crazy.
Regards, Dave

I see in my latest Cabela's "Shooting" catalog, page 12, Buffalo Bore Ammo which includes what they call 45-70 Govt. Mag. In the fine print they specify that this ammo is not for use in the trapdoor action. They list two loads, a 430 grain lead bullet at 1925 fps and a 500 grain FMJ at 1625 fps. Obviously both of these loads far exceed SAAMI specifications.

We all know of course that these cartridges have been used improperly, and that some shooters have unwittingly exposed themselves to risk. In various forums I have advised shooters to stay away from loads that go beyond the loading manual specifications for the trapdoor springfield. In all truth this is the load that made the 45-70 famous, and has certainly given a good account of itself on a wide species of big game for over 100 years.

Also, why take a chance with your nice custom Sharps rifle when it is all so un-necessary. I tell those who simply must have the most steam available to get a 450 Marlin or a 458 Mag.

Just an opinion boys as I feel like a school boy among schollars. Having been a policeman and always looking for a one shot stop. I had the pleasure of dealing with corbon cartidge manufacutures. They do make a heavy 45x70 load. At the time I was buying from them they offered a 250 grain and a 300 grain traveling at 2500 and 2300+ fps respectively. They are clearly marked not for anything but modern rifles in this chambering. I do know that no manufacturer would knowing load anything over SAMMI specs as the liability would be an open door for somone to rape them.
Whether they still offer them I don't know. FYI Waddy

8iowa,

It's interesting that you should mention getting a .458 Win Mag in your comments about those who need more steam. I have always been a fan of big holes in the ends of barrels. In my more poorly advised youth, I saw a very handome Remington 700 Custom .458 in the rack at a local gunshop. It was used, in very good condition, and the price was right - so I bought it. I think I looked at the prices of factory ammo and figured I could buy the dies, bullets, and brass for the same price (I had powder and primers), so I loaded up a bunch to Hornady's spec. Out to the range I went; fired 20 shots; developed a nasty, painful bruise on my shoulder; had a headache for 3 days; sold the gun without another shot being fired. I think I now know why a used rifle was in such nice shape.

I can only recommend to those who have to get magnum performance out of these wonderful recreations of the classic, nostalgic rifles we love so dearly: buy a used safari class bolt action dreadnaught, fire 20 or 30 quick shots, and get it out of your system. Then it's a quick trip back to sanity after the connective tissue and muscle heal and the concussion abates.

The difference in the 45/70 Government load and other loading is this ! The loading for the 45/70 Government will shoot well in the 45/70 trapdoor springfield and the other loading will not shoot that well or be able to use with the sights on a Trapdoor rifle ! JAGG