Comments on BPCR Accuracy....

[LJBass]

Hey Guys,
I have read this post with some interest even when it sorta slipped off the road here and there. It sounds like most of you are silhouette shooters and are relating your group size to how well your load will perform at the turkey or ram line. I probably don't get to shoot as many silhouette matches as a lot of you, but I do get to shoot a monthly 500 yard target rifle match. I am no statistician and punching paper may not sound like an exciting type of match, but it will really let you see how accurate and consistent your load is. I have watched fellows who are fine shots keep the first five rounds in the 10 ring and then drop an 8 or 7 for no reason. Then shoot three more 10's and drop another 7. I've also seen fifteen round possibles shot with 8 or 10 x's. To my mind this is the type of accuracy we are all looking for if we are match shooters. As conditions change during a match points of aim will change due to mirage, wind, light and probably a couple of things I haven't thought of. But, the loads that will keep 15 rounds inside the 10 ring of an MR or MRX target were loads in which the shooters had confidence enough to adjust for conditions and make the shots. I'm not sure statistical analysis is going to get you very far in developing a minute of x-ring load. I think it is more empirical. I believe, you have to shoot at distance and develope a load you trust to shoot where you point. Then comes the real tough part. Learning where to point it!
Regards, LJ

[Trigger Dr]

Yesterday I shot a 15 round group that measured 3" x 3" at a measured 1475 yards, off hand if you will believe it. Then my wife woke me up and told me to either quit laughing or sleep on the couch.
Jim

[Omaha Poke]

Larry and Tr Doc, good posts both About time we got back to shootin'. Randy

[Old Doe Shooter]

Boys! Boys! You are confusing group size with the ability to hit a target.
Groups, no matter where they fall are only useful to assess basic load performance. You shoot a 2- shot, 3-shot, 5-shot or 10 shot group or groups to satisfy your personal criteria for load capability. Sometimes more is better but considering all the variables in shooting any type of firearm there is a limit, or a point of diminishing returns.
If your basic load is suitable for your purpose and you adjust your sights properly, the likely results will be positive but group size will have no bearing on your success or failure on a given pull of the trigger.
Your opinions are valuable based on your expertise but they are YOURS and seldom are universal to the fraternity of worldwide shooters. If someone wishes to accept your opinion and honor your experience, that's their choice.
The real truth is. in the end, the only thing that matters is the one-shot group. The one shot you are taking NOW at paper, metal, game or the enemy is the only shot that matters. You either hit what you aim at or you don't. Nearly countless factors contribute to each and every shot as an individual shot, a group of one.
Lighten up! Some of you boys need to get outside and wash a pig sometime.
See what good it does you or the pig.

[Old Doe Shooter]

Boys! Boys! You are confusing group size with the ability to hit a target.
Groups, no matter where they fall are only useful to assess basic load performance. You shoot a 2- shot, 3-shot, 5-shot or 10 shot group or groups to satisfy your personal criteria for load capability. Sometimes more is better but considering all the variables in shooting any type of firearm there is a limit, or a point of diminishing returns.
If your basic load is suitable for your purpose and you adjust your sights properly, the likely results will be positive but group size will have no bearing on your success or failure on a given pull of the trigger.
Your opinions are valuable based on your expertise but they are YOURS and seldom are universal to the fraternity of worldwide shooters. If someone wishes to accept your opinion and honor your experience, that's their choice.
The real truth is. in the end, the only thing that matters is the one-shot group. The one shot you are taking NOW at paper, metal, game or the enemy is the only shot that matters. You either hit what you aim at or you don't. Nearly countless factors contribute to each and every shot as an individual shot, a group of one.
Lighten up! Some of you boys need to get outside and wash a pig sometime.
See what good it does you or the pig.

[Whtbear]

Finally...someone who understands what shooting is...a paper group is only good for giving an indication of what the rifle does over time. The one shot you are firing is the only thing that is important. Does it take the intended target down? If it did...it was a fantastic shot.

Brent you stated: "In the meantime, I am still wondering why my 38-55 or my .45-100 will not shoot as accurately as my father-in-law's .223 Cooper. " You can't really be serious can you? Of course that .223 is going to shoot a tighter group! This is just a simple physics problem. You also stated that any ruger #1 will outshoot any BP gun...big words, but not so. If you want to compare rounds...compare the same calibre, the same weight of bullet using the two different different powder types. For example if you can prove that a 45-70 nitro loaded round will shoot "circles" as you put it around a similarly loaded BP 45-70...well then you might have something. Comparing .45 or .38 or .44 rounds against a supersonic .223 or .270 or even a .303 is just ludicrous. Of course they are going to have tighter groups. They have shorter flight times, have better balistic coefficients and are blasting nearly 2 to 3 times faster on average than your average bp round.

Now I do agree, as I was taught when in national compitition small bore, more than three shots groups don't say much and to me is a waste, ...I hunt things and shoot rocks.

MLV has his way, you have yours....both work for the individual using them. I don't think that Mike is stuck in the mire...I think his way works for him. Your way is not new by the way....it has been taught in the sharp shooting courses of all the major military services for nearly 80 years. I am pretty sure over the long run the two or three shot group would yield a better average group size, but I tend to think so...two or three shots are not going to have the problems that 5 and 10 shot strings do. (three is actually better by the way...tends to show up as a triangle giving a good indicator of shot placement) Fouling alone and inconsistant wiping techniques will effect the string. Course, this is just paper punching and unless you are trying to 'tune' a round, really only is an ego booster. What counts is the final score, the number of targets down, or did you bring home meat.

[Bumper]

I had always used a chronograph to first evaluate loads (at least 10 shots) and then fired at least 3 shots of the loads that show promise to see how the load groups. After getting into BPCR I have tended to shoot 10 to 15 shots to evaluate how the load groups for the following reasons.

1. Shooting off the bench does not accurately simulate match conditions as body position and cheek weld are different from the sitting or prone positions

2. As we commonly fire 13 or more rounds (sighters included) at a bank of 10 animals it stands to reason that we should practice as we shoot.

3. Our performance/score on a bank of animals rests on having a consistant load, and good spotter, consistant bore coditions (blow tubing, bore pigs, running a patch/patches, etc), maintaining proper position on the sticks, same cheek weld each shot, breaking the shot the same way every time. Practice, practice, practice, to say the least is needed to perform the above regimen.

4. By firing 10 to 15 shot groups (should be done under the clock/timer) we can to some degree emulate match conditions and test our ability to "group" our shots.

Using the above conditions we can better understand the dynamics involved in shooting good groups. 1 1/2 " under those conditions would be more than outstanding. Like Gunny, I found a load that was dynamite at turkeys and all over the place at pigs. Some shooters are no doubt satisfied with 2 shots but for me a greater number of shots are required not only to evaluate the load but to drive home the importance of consistancy. Like most shooters there are some days that for no reason I score noticably better than usual, but when shooting at 100/200m bullseye targets trying to see if I can match Dan T.s sub 1" 20 shot group I'm quickly reminded of the difficulty in successfully competing for a Pedersoli Trophy. Maybe when I retire there will be enough time to pursue the holy Grail of a magic load and small groups but I'm sure that infirmities of the body and mind will try to pervent me from reaching that goal.

[bulldog]

I figure it this way - your gun will shoot a 2" group at 200yds if held in a vise. Now when you hold the gun you swing and wiggle 12" each way. So, the target possible hit area is really 24" plus 4 ". Or 28 ". So, you'll hit a chicken half the time.
Now lets say your gun shoots a 5" group at 200yds when held in a vise. You still swing 12" each way so the target possible hit area is 24" plus 10" or 34". So, you'll hit a chicken a little less than half the time. The main thing is more how you swing than how accurate the gun is.

Now, for hunting (unless you're sitting in one of them Texas breakfast and shoot camps with your rifle in a bench rest aimed at the feeder) double the swing area or 48" at 200yds. That's cause you probably been walking and huffing up a hill. That is, you can be pretty sure of hitting a 48" circle. To me that means you'll hit a deer or hog about half the time and half of that will be a fatal shot and half not. I would imagine at 100yds you'll double your chance of a fatal shot and at 50 yds double it again. So, at 50 yds 3 out of 4 times ought to be a fatal shot. What do ya'all think - I would put this as just rough measurements and guestamations statistics. To me a 1" group or a 5" group for the rifle isn't going to make much difference compared to the holding on target wiggle factor.

[Slim]

Whosshh!!! Did I ever hear a bigger blast of swamp gas? Not that I can recall!!

MLV is right, a true marksman puts the bullet where he aims, all of the other stuff with groups, moa, etc is merely an indicator of how close the bullet is likely to strike the point of aim. Reading the wind and other sneaky stuff that master marksman do is just as important--if not more so than tiny groups on paper.

After reading this entire topic, I suspect some have lost sight of this simple reality. Of course, I'm just an old soldier who jumped out of perfectly good airplanes for no good reason while in the airborne--so what do I know!! As for statistics, my LTC instructor told me once, "figures lie and liars figure"! With that I will move on to other forum topics such as how hit the target more often.

Good night!!

[MLV]

Hey Slim: Your ought to come join us in Missoula some next year. We shoot silhouette from April until September the third Saturday of the month. Some months on Sunday we shoot LR - 800, 900 & 1000 yard paper targets and on others we shoot another day of silhouette. Its a great group of people; no fighting or bickering. Leroy (who posts here sometimes) visited us from Canada the last match and said he had never seen people having such a good time at a shooting match before.

And my message to all is to test your guns and loads however you want. You'll never see or read from me telling you how it SHOULD or MUST be done. I'll tell you how I DO MINE. I won't tell you what you SHOULD be shooting for rifle, components, or accessories but will say WHAT I USE and what the results are. I will URGE people to get off the benchrests and learn MARKSMANSHIP too because my good friend Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch fame taught me to do that and my scores improved because of him. I will URGE people to get out and join in some competitions because they are an immense load of fun and I've seen so many lifelong bonds form between people who have met at shooting events around the country. They may never have met otherwise. But be aware, most avid competitors at BPCR matches are well grounded in reality so leave any ego problems or meglomania at home.

Also, if you think what I say, write, or do in my shooting is wrong, then just come out to some of the shooting events I'm at and beat me. I'll certainly pay attention then to whatever you're doing. Never fear I've never "backhanded" anyone figuratively or literally yet. And unless you do something dismally unsafe neither will I call you stupid or incompetent.

And lastly back to the primary point of this post let me say this. I've shot in hundreds of BPCR silhouette matches and dozens of NRA "Creedmoor" events. I spotted for Steve Garbe for 3 of his 4 National Championships in BPCR Silhouette, and I've also spotted for such notables in the game as Dave Grulher, Butch Ulsher, Darrel Smithson, and Bob Glodt. Steve Brooks has spotted for me on a number of occasions, but since his wife always spots for him I've never done so. I've also got a modest trophy case myself but that's not as important as what I've SEEN. To the best of my memory or knowledge I've never seen any of these shooters put 10 shots into a sub 1 1/2 MOA cluster from 300 meters on out to 1000 yards REPEATEDLY. Neither have I seen anyone do it on paper here on my own 300 yard range - time and again ON DEMAND. Certainly someone can do it ON DEMAND, as there are many fine shooters out there with whom I have never shot or seen shoot. I'M ONLY RELATING WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND EXPERIENCED MYSELF.

I wish all of you good shooting, and for heavens sake if anyone has a PERSONAL problem with me or anything that I write then have the good sense take it up with me PERSONALLY. Don't expose the rest of the good people on this board to it.

[Tallperson]

MLV here here !!
Let folks know what works for you and let them decide...
Tallperson

[Whtbear]

Nicely stated Mike. Someday I hope to meet you..maybe at one of the montana shoots as that is where I plan to move within the next three years.

[MLV]

Good luck in moving here Whtbear. We can use are the shooters we can get!

[Whtbear]

Mike, I've been trying for nearly 10 years now. I thought I would be getting there this year, but my wife had emergency surgury so had to postpone it. We are saving to move toward the livingston to missoula area. We shall see what happens. By the way...if I shoot at the missoula range, can I use my 20lb rifle? One of the reasons I do not compete is I bought a bull barreled sharps and most of the compititions will not allow it. I got to shoot in Nebraska Alliance shoot with it and had a ball...rifle shoots very nice and people were great.

[Windcutter, SWNM]

Gents and Madams,

Many THANKS to MLV for putting this entire subject into proper perspective.