Smokeless Powder in a 45-120

[wavery]

Has anyone found data for or experimented with smokeless powder and jacketed bullets in a 45-120? I realize that the Shiloh doesn't warranty the 45-120 for smokeless powder but the action MUST be strong enough to handle reasonable loads.

[Ray Newman]

Accurate Arms has some loads for White/Nitro powder & full metal patched (jacketed) bullets:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/

[RMulhern]

Here's my thinking on that:

[Smokin]

Sharpaman,

I think there is a .458 Lott which, I believe, is a straightened out .375 H&H. This .45-3 and a quarter Nitro would be a .458 Lotta Whole Bunch. In a thoroughly perverse way, I'd kinda enjoy watching someone shoot a round or two of that round. I think it would put a flat on one side of the rounder, but selling asprin and cold compresses to the puller of that trigger could be a profitable venture.

Happy New Year

ps, young'n doin' OK?

[Capt. Call]

Shortly after the turn of the century and the invention of smokeless powder our friends the British came up with several large smokeless calibers for use in their African side by sides.One quick one that comes to mind would be the 450 Nitro Express. These cartridges operated at what be considered very low pressures by today's standards. Yet as far as power goes they don't take a back seat to anything in common use today..... aka 458 Winchester.

Now I am sure that once you would put some distance on and compare them to the accuracy that we get with Bp .... they wouldn't stack up very well at all. However ... they were not hunting and shooting elephants at 500 plus yards!

Everyone that hunts with their Sharps tend to agree that 200 yards is about the maximum distance you should shoot at game. At that short distance I am sure you can not see much difference as far as accuracy goes between smokeless and BP. Now lets compare bullet velocity and killing power .... not much that we can compare .... smokeless win hands down!

These big old African cartridges look allot like our 45-120 and 45-110s and I am sure the actions used back then are no stronger than our MODERN Shiloh Sharps.

I know I am not the person that could set down on a bench and shoot 50 or 60 rounds off in one off these big Express cartridges and would never want to cross the person that could! I am just typing out loud and talking about a few rounds shot in a hunting situation.

Could one of you old Rifle cranks please explain to me the big picture on this and what these old British gun makes new that we somehow never did learn.

With today's Ultra slow burning smokeless powders I can not seem to get this picture of a 45 cal 350gr Hornady at 2600 fps out of my head!

Jeff ...you wanted me to stir up the Forum again...lets see if this does it!

[bobw]

Wavery: Ray pointed you one way. I will point you another. Get a copy of the Hodgon's Cowboy Action reloaders guide. They have or had loads in there that should give you all the abuse you can possibly want using slow burning smokeless and heavy bullets. Should immediately start developing a headache just viewing those loads. After shooting them come back and honestly tell us, thats what shooting a Sharps is supposed to be about. Before you get to think I'm trying to flame you, remember I shoot a 50-3.25" and have never given a thought to shooting smokeless in it, The challenge as I see it is to recreate BP loads that are accurate,safe, and can be shot without having to wipe after every shot. Which means BP, ppb's, grease cookies(lubricating discs). Just my honest opinion. With Respect bobw

[Smokin]

bobw,

That's kind of my thinking too. Each of us has different notions about what looks good and what works well for our idiosyncrasies. Some might want to put slicks on a '46 Plymouth and enter all 98 HP in a drag race. Personally, I'd rather drag somethng with a D9 Cat. It seems that all of us have a different notion about what works in general and what works for us specifically.

To the fellow who wants to shoot nitro and jacketed bullets in a .45-120, more power to you, just be careful and consider that there may be better forums than this where you may address your questions and expect cogent, well reasoned and carefully researched answers. There are a lot of fellows here who are positive sticks in the mud. Good black mud stuck with Sharps sticks.

Good luck; good shooting,

[wavery]

Don't get me wrong. I fully appreciate the heritage associated with a Sharps rifle. It's just I haven't come to terms yet with using bp in a $3000+ rifle. I have plenty of other guns that I hunt with and give no thought to dragging through rain, snow, salt water, etc. But my sharps is still a virgin!

[powderburner]

waverly ;
When you consider 4 patches at most and a oily rag wipedown thats a lot easier on a rifle than scrubbing with ammonia solvents to remove copper than other chemicals to remove fouling then bore brushing to remove fouling....... Dean

[bobw]

Wavery:Getsome thoughts from others here on the forum. I'd be be more worried about premature wear and stress on a $3,000 rifle by shooting smokeless higher pressure loads than using it with the powder it was designed for. Shiloh uses the best materials availible for the manufacture of their guns, but it is still a 130 year old design. Do a search on the site, for how others clean and care for their rifles after shooting them with black powder, it really doesn't have to be all that tedious or a pain in the ... bobw

[hatchet]

After you get your first nick on it, at first you will be a bit upset. Then, the anger is replaced with a feeling of relief, in that you can now move foward and get on with what you bought the gun for, to shoot it. As far as shooting blackpowder in it, that's what it was made for and makes the shooting experience more special. If you want to expermint with smokeless in yours, that's up to you. I will tell you though, I have two Marlin 1895 Cowboys in 45-70 that I have loaded some 400 grainers to 2100fps & 500 grainers to 1700fps and they hurt. And I'm a 36 year old powerlifter with a 435 benchpress.

[Kevan P.]

Have to agree with Hatchet...can't imagine using smokeless in my
45-120, recoil with black, even a max load is comfortable..but with smokeless, recoil will be much faster, much sharper !
Aside from my BP rifles I shoot over 50 other various smokeless calibers and I'd sooner clean a BP rifle than a smokeless one, sometimes scrubbing out copper fouling from a magnum is a lot harder work than three or four patches thru the Shiloh.
Regarding accuracy...you'll be pleasantly suprised if you work with it .
Mine's no benchrest gun, but its taken Moose, Mule Deer, and the odd careless coyote.
Try the Black....you won't be sorry !
Cheers... and a Happy 2006 to Everybody !!

[old101lrrp]

Wavery...

You say you "haven't come to terms yet with using bp in a $3K gun" I guess I gotta ask......is this your 1st BP gun If so you could have picked a little smaller calibre to "learn"on...but then again, all is not lost Any you may have will get answered by our great forum members. We want you to do great......that is unless, if ya come out to a match that we're shootin' in Just kiddin'.........load that BP & shoot straight............. God Bless

PS: got a 110 & will share loading info if ya want...

[RMulhern]

[quote="Smokin"]Sharpaman,

I think there is a .458 Lott which, I believe, is a straightened out .375 H&H. This .45-3 and a quarter Nitro would be a .458 Lotta Whole Bunch. In a thoroughly perverse way, I'd kinda enjoy watching someone shoot a round or two of that round. I think it would put a flat on one side of the rounder, but selling asprin and cold compresses to the puller of that trigger could be a profitable venture.

Happy New Year

ps, young'n doin' OK?[/quote]

Smokin

Yep...she's doing OK! Called me today and told me she had another cast put on in CAMO and asked if I had put a new tire on my wheel-barrow as she wants me to push her down into the pinoak bottom this weekend so she can hunt! Won't ride a wheeler down there as she says it scares the game off! Said some old man had taught her that a few years back! Wonder who??

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mulhernri ... pg&.src=ph

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I always wanted a 45-120, but could never bring myself to waste (my opinion) the time and/or $$$ to experience a non-sharps calibre in a Shiloh. Soooooooo, one day I ordered a 34" x 1.125" octagon barrel and built myself a R-R-R-uuugerrrrrr #3 in 45-120. The #3 actually looks like a proper SS rifle with a long octagon barrel and an adult proportioned stock. You can get 120gr of FFg into that 3.25" case...with a 36" drop tube and .5" compression.
There was even room for a Lyman mould 560gr bullet (30:1). The rifle weighs nearly 12 pounds (not enough for this type of load) and the recoil was simply awesome. I had a Krieghoff double in 500 3" Nitro Express, and those 590gr bullets at 2150fps in a 10 pound rifle were easier on me than the BP. Objective or subjective, they seemed...nicer...? I still have the #3, and till shoot it ocasionally. Either BP with a 500gr Schmitzer or enough 4350 behind a 500gr copper-tubed solid to clock 2400fps is an experience. DO NOT!!!!!!!!!! try this in your Sharps!!!!! Pieces will rain out of the sky for hours.

I do not think even using Elephant powder for less velocity and recoil and a loverin-style bullet seated deeply in the case that you will need to load more than three rounds per trip to the range.

regards,

Rich