50-70 Smokeless Loads

[Todd Birch]

I've been quite happy with the MLV 50-70 load of 65 grs BP under the Lyman 515141, but I've always been puzzled by the dearth of published loads using smokeless powders.
Some of you may recall the flame war that started with my report of shooting a 425 lb black bear with this load, but we won't go there right now .....

I'm not talking about those puny loads that need a patch of PuffLon or Dacron to hold the powder in place, but a case volume filling load. Forget about Trail Boss unless you're after a squirrel load for your 50-70.

When loading smokeless 45-70 loads, I often use a fired 50-70 case to catch the powder charge from the measure before weighing it. I noticed that the mild load of 36 grs Varget was doing a good job of filling up the 50-70 case. This BP equivalent load, with a cast 405 gr bullet, shoots very well in my 45-70 Browning '86 and has taken two large moose for me; both one shot kills.

So, I loaded up 20 50-70 cases with 40 grs of Varget under the Lyman 515141 and went to the range .....

Recoil was negligible compared to the BP loads and at 50 yards (off hand) and 100 yds (sitting) the group sizes were indistinguishable - three shots in 3" at 50 for both; three shots in 3" (BP), three shots in 3 1/2" smokeless at 100 with the same sight settings. Couldn't ask for much better.
Certainly good enough for minute-of-bear or deer and I won't take game with a 50-70 past 100 yds unless it's an ideal shot.

After a string of BP loads, 2-3 shots with the smokelss loads left the barrel with the usual few grains of unburned powder I've come to expect in a 45-70 from 3031 or Varget. Clean up was minimal.

The Paul Matthews loads using 3031, 4895 or 4198 call for charges ranging from 53 to 63 grs under 350/400 gr bullets! I think he brought the BP 'no space under the bullet' thought to smokeless or he was influenced by the late Elmer keith.
I've been present when such loads were fired in a Ruger #3 carbine and all I can say is - better him than me!

The only published smokeless 50-70 loads I've found using the Lyman 515141 call for 30 grs 4198 or 26.5 grs SR 4759, both using a Dacron over powder wad. With 3031 and the slightly heavier 512138, the max is 39 grs, so I'm in the ball park.

I may up the charge to 45 grs, but don't want to push it. When I want to thump something, I'll use BP.

Todd

[Trigger Dr]

Rich,
Go to AccuratePowder.com,
click on products, a photo of powder canisters will come up. Click on the 5744 container. Scroll down to load data and you will find what you need.
Jim

[Rich Siegel]

Todd,

In my Shiloh 26" barrel saddle rifle in 50/70, I like Accurate Arms 2495 powder. I use a soft lead 490 grain bullet and 45.5 grains of 2495. Velocity is 1225fps and accuracy is 2" at 100 yards.

With the same bullet, I also use 39 grains of 3031 or 28 grains of 4198. The 4198 load only yields 1060fps though.

Rich

[Todd Birch]

Gentlemen

First off, I erred in my original post re: my group size at 50 yds. It was three shots in 2", not 3" as stated. I think I was lucky in getting a smokeless plinking load that grouped with BP loads on my first try.

One of my pals is using 5744 in his High Wall 45-70 and I consistently outshoot him with Varget in my '86. Then again, I beat him with just about any other powder/rifle combo, so that proves nothing. He's one of those guys that insists on making a 45-70 a sub-.458 Magnum.

I try to keep my powders at a minimim, but will investigate loads using 5744.
I must be the only person extant who doen't feel the compulsion to shoot across a chronograph. Mine has been out of the box twice since I acquired it. I did it simply to see how the thing functioned and put it away.
By the time I pack up to head to the range, the last thing I need is another gadget that requires set up time. I still occasionally forget things.

I'm often asked what velocity I'm getting from various loads and calibres and I couldn't care less. If I get the results I want down range and the game drops dead when I hit it, my needs are met. Especially with old time calibres in buffler guns.
A pal was recently chronoing some loads to pick one for hunting. He told me that his choice was going to be based on velocity and not accuracy! I asked if he thought game would notice the difference between a load at 2800+ fps and one at 2750. He was stumped.

Todd

[Hobie]

Todd,

I'd like to know velocities, just to know, but I do understand your point of view. If it works, it works and that's what matters!

I appreciate the post. A .50-70 is still on my short list.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Hi Hobie,

Good to see you posting over here.

Best regards,

Scott

[Todd Birch]

Once I learned that published velocity figures are somewhat exaggerated (Weatherby and Norma come to mind), I lost interest in them.

The reloading manuals do better as they use actual off-the-shelf rifles for their data. Since they spend considerable time, money and resources to get the data, I'm willing to take them at their word.

If my loads come reasonably close to their published instrumental velocity, that's fine by me. Truth be known, I'm lazy and if I can live without another source of aggravation in my shooting, so much the better!

A lot of stock is put into low spikes between shot-to-shot velocities, yet I've read several times of the best accuracy coming from loads with wild fluctations between recorded velocities. Go figure .....

I've yet to read concerns about velocity being a concern amongst old time BPCR shooters and Schuetzen riflemen. What they wanted was accuracy.

Todd

[Smokin]

The 50-70 has great nostalgia. The rifles originally chambered for it are wonderfully nostalgic. The 50-70 loaded with smokless has great disconnect. I have to admit being at a great loss to understand the fascination some have for shooting modern powders in old cartridges never designed for that type of propellant. My feeling is that if you need to shoot smokless in a somewhat nostalgic type of cartridge, do it in a .32 Winchester Special. At least that one was supposed to bridge the powder gap.

How about a Ruger #1 in .458 Winchester? A belted .45-90 and one that will love smokless and jacketed bullets - to make the picture complete.

[Todd Birch]

Smokin

In general, I agree with you. I once got into hot water on this forum for suggesting that a shooter buy a 50-90 instead of "hot-rodding" a 50-70 to boost performance.

The same could be said for putting a fast twist barrel chambered for a traditional BP cartridge on a Sharps, installing a mercury recoil reducer, etc. The headstamp of the brass may be the same, but ....
Who's kidding who? You pays you money - you takes you choice.

As I said in my previous post, I'm lazy. I'd rather be shooting than weighing, drop tubing, compressing, wadding, indexing and cleaning brass. Shooting smokeless in some of my loads allows me to shoot more often.

However, no smokeless load is ever going to out class the 'boom' and 'blast' of BP! Like Steve Garbe says - "Smokeless is just a passing fad."

Todd

[sfoster]

Todd;
My Lymann Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd. ed, 1980 does indeed list those very loads as max for the 515141. It also has loads for Unique, 630, and IMR 4227.

As you noted, all smokeless loads are shown using a dacron wad.


My short list of cast bullet smokeless powders includes IMR4227 and IMR 4198. I used a starting load of IMR 4227 behind the 515139 (21 grains). It worked OK, but was not as accurate as a case load of Clear Shot with about 1\8" compression, using the 515141. As that was the last of my
Clear Shot, I did not record the charge weight.

I need to start using soft lead for 50-70 loads, instead of the harder stuff I have been using for the others.

The smokeless loads smeemed OK for low maintainance plinking ammo, but just was not as satisfying as even a Black Powder substitute load. The next powder I will try with both these slugs (cast softer) is Goex Cartridge Grade black powder.

Sean

[bobw]

Hey Todd do the logical thing, send the gun to a smith have him rechamber it out to 50 3.25" shoot twice the powder per shot, having twice the fun with black. Besides in the long run it will save you the nuisance of having to care a stick along to finish them off. Sorry bout that,but good luck anyways bobw

[Todd Birch]

Hey Bobw

Nah, I think I'll stick with the wimp 50-70 and let the big boys get belted by the really Big 50s. The idea of that ahead of the military butt plate of my rifle is a scary thought ....

You'll be happy to hear that this year I'm packing a whole 5 rds. Still, it won't compare with having to bash a dying bear with a club. I mean, what real man needs a rifle to kill a bear anyway?

Twice in the week before hunting season I had a 450-500 lb bear in my yard; I mean 20' away! My lady had just missed bumping into him. I fired a shot from a .44 mag into the dirt behind him which he ignored. He had just hauled off a 25 lb bag of dog food from a bin on the porch.

Next day he appeared again and after he lunged at my dog, I put another .44 mag rd into the stump beside him and he ambled off. Now that It's hunting season, he's made himself scarce.

I checked with the game warden and sho' nuff, I coulda dumped him legally but without authorization, couldn't have done anything with the meat or hide. Waiting for that, he would have rotted on the ground.

Ain't bureaucracy grand?

Todd

[bobw]

Hey Todd, can't argue with your reasoning at all and am sure glad you got a budget approval though for the 5 rd carry this year.You know a friend of mine brought his 2nd Allin conversion Trapdoor in 50-70 to the "Q" this year with the original sights which are pretty crude in anyones book and shot a 9/48 only getting a 0 on the buffalo. 50's own their own space and have a charm beyond describing with words. He told me the other day that he was figuring on doing his antelope with 65 grs of FFg and the 515141 Lyman bullet and I'll bet money on the meat being made. Good luck on the bear hunt and others . bobw

[Scota4570]

Ken Waters, Pet Loads #2 P-505

50-70, Shiloh Sharps Carbine

370 gr Shiloh 33 gr 4198 1200 fps near max cast
490 gr 515142 33 gr 4198 1199 fps maximum cast
300 gr Colorado 32 gr 4198 1151 fps normal jacketed

He says the middle one is the most accurate and best load tested.

I'm with the BP only guys, to each his own though.

[zrifleman]

515142 gave the best accuracy in my 50-70. 28 grs of 4198 with a dacron poly wad over the powder gave me 50 fps gain and lower E.S.