35-30 Maynard

[mdeland]

I haven't used any BP in the case yet and need to get busy and try it. Sure am curious about the longitudinal case cracking and cause. Not sure annealing would help much that far down the case.
Sounds almost like it is expanding more on one side than the other .
I'm running 16 grains of H-110 pushing that 195 grain Lyman round nose at 1620 fps so I must be running a good 10-K more pressure than anything you have shot using 4 F even considering the heavier bullets and haven't lost a case yet.
You made no mention of primer difficulty so it doesn't sound like a pressure problem.
The other thing that baffles me is cracking longitudinally instead of radially. MD

[mdeland]

Yeah Terry , that's them goofy looking Maynard harness rivet cases, as I call them ! MD

[gws]

The new Brooks mould based on Dan T's design (I had the nose lengthened by .15") arrived day before yesterday and I am going to cast a bunch and start working on loads. The bullets drop at 280 grains. I'll post a picture later today.

GS

[Don McDowell]

Couple of things that sorta jump right out at a fella.
1 If a 300 gr 375 bullet hurled out of a 38-55 and a 400 gr bullet from a 40-65 can't be counted on not to ring rams, I fail to see how a 357 max loaded with bp and shooting a 300 gr bullet is going to get the job done. Replicating the original 35 maynards might be a noble thing, but I have my doubts as to simply loading a 35 rem max with bp holds to the spirit of the game, and following the commonly avialable from the period.....
2 The oldeadguys, jumped from 32-38 calibers for most of their lite work, got to wonder why they didn't make more out of the 35's way back when....

[deerhuntsheatmeup]

Don,

I concur on the spirit of the game thoughts. If a chamber reamer made within the existing rules regarding caliber, happens to work well with brass head stamped for a modern cartridge, so be it. My 2 cents....

Best, david b

[rdnck]

Barvid, I agree. It doesn't matter what the parent case is, or how it is headstamped. It is the chamber that matters, and if you want to compete with a 35-30 Maynard, then that is how the chamber should be cut, and brass made to fit the original chamber configuration. Chambering a rifle to 357 Maximum and loading the cartridge with black powder means you are shooting a 357 Maximum, not a 35-30 Maynard. Competing with that rifle/cartridge combination in BPCR and calling it a 35-30 Maynard is cheating any way you cut it. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[gws]

Don,

I've seen center hit 45-90's ring rams at Graham, TX so there is no guarantee on rams regardless of caliber. I started shooting silhouette with a 45-70 and migrated to a 45-100 because I erred in my thinking that bigger is better. Being a gear head I started looking at the ballistics and physics of silhouette shooting. I determined, for me, smaller, faster and harder bullets would do what needed to be done and I would not be bruised for two weeks after a match. Being the hard headed type I didn't just move to smaller calibers but to those bottlenecks that "everyone" knows won't shoot. I shot some really good scores with a fast twist 38-56 with a 360 grain bullet. Getting bored with that I moved to a 40-50 BN which was fun to shoot and easy to load. I dumped powder into the case to the bottom of the neck and seated a bullet. Notice I didn't say I used a wad, just a bullet on powder and it is arguably the most accurate silhouette rifle I ever owned. When Dan started looking at the 35's I found the caliber I really liked. I had a 1:10 twist 35-40 Maynard built and with a 340 grain bullet cast with Lyman #2 it has knocked down every ram its hit some fall slow but speed to the ground doesn't count; down counts. I acquired a Falling Block Works rifle that was chambered in 220 Swift which didn't interest me but Brownell's had a 1:10 twist 357 caliber douglas barrel blank that was intended for silhouette pistols and I had it screwed on the FBW's action and chambered in 357 maximum/35-30 Maynard/38 XL. I mounted a 4x Lyman scope with a post reticle because that's what I had on hand, cast some 250 grain gas check bullets intended for a 35 Remington or 35 Whelen and shot them without the gas check over 3F and ultimately 4F swiss. The 250 grain bullet will not consistently knock down rams if hit center mass but edge hits will work and works quite well for all the other animals. Shooting the 340 grain bullet out of the 357 max case (as shown on the other 35 bullet thread) has not failed to perform on rams either. There is really only about 5 grains difference in case capacity between the 35-30 M case and the 35-40 M case. I am very anxious to try the new slightly modified Dan T design in this rifle. The extra weight and higher BC should make it work quite well. With every cartridge there is a learning curve and each is unique unto itself, the journey is about finding the load that shoots best and making the most of it. I know that I am not worn out at the end of a match like I am when I shoot a 45-90 or above in the middle of a Texas summer. The game is more fun when you don't hurt at the end of the day.

Now, would I recommend a new shooter start with a 35-30 Maynard... No I would not but I wouldn't recommend a 45-90 or 45-100/110 for a new shooter either. It is a wonderful world we live in where there are enough calibers that each can choose what works for them. I am very fortunate to be able to pursue this hobby in any direction I choose and do not disparage anyone that wants to start and end with a 40 or 45 caliber rifle. I think often we get caught up in trying to divine what the "old dead guys" might do as well as all the other old wive's tales surrounding loading and shooting black powder. We shoot air gauged stainless steel barrels on CNC machined actions and none of those things were available to the "old dead guys". What we need to be doing is shooting as much as possible and bringing young people into the sport so it doesn't die out in the 21st century. Get your local club to set up a 22 silhouette range, invite the kids and let them shoot what they bring. The infectious nature of watching those steel critters fall will bring them back and then they can be educated into the elegance of single shot rifles. You just got to keep from giving money to Barvid to bring back barbeque.

George Springer

[Don McDowell]

George while it may be a real truth that there are "gamers" in every sport ( you ought to see all the BSA's and Anshutz'sand tricked out 10-22's that show up at a shoot what you brung 22 match) not all of us have any interest in the airguaged stainless barrels, and are much more content to shoot things as close to the originals as we can. And there's no denying that keeping it original as possible was the original intent at the start of the bpcr silloutte and target rifle matches..Most of the shooting sports get wrecked at some point by folks using (we'll call it) technology to gain an upper hand.....
I just think that while the 35 maynard cartridges may very well be adequate for silloutte and no doubt would handle midrange duties in good shape on calm days, the deminsional difference between the 357 max and the original Maynard cases is quite striking. I also find it as I said before that even tho the 35 calbier cartridges were somewhat available there's little mention of them, 32's and 38's were doing the lite duty, and the 35's don't seem to have been messed with much.
I also think that as there are alot of lurkers hanging out and reading this and other boards, I can't help but wonder what'll happen to the guy that rents the 357 max reamer stuffs it up the chamber of his 357 uberti roller,give a couple of twists, and shows up at a match with gun and ammo in hand? Do you suppose he'll be able to do anything other than just shoot, or will he/she be allowed to shoot for score?

[Don McDowell]

According to the deminsions I have the 357 is smaller in diameter, has a much smaller rim (and that's not counting the 2 maynards that have a 3/4 in. diameter rim) and is longer than some and shorter than other of the 35 Maynards...
But that's alright you boys do what you think you need to do.

[gws]

Don,

While I would not accuse anyone of cheating as some here do on a regular basis I would submit that the differences between the 35-30 Maynard case and the 357 maximum case is trivial. I believe that Remington based the 357 Remington Maximum on the 35-30M/38XL so there is parity in the case design. I did the same comparison that Dan provided a drawing for several years ago. If I felt the need to make an exact chamber copy I can get a reamer made that exactly duplicates the Cartridges of the World published dimensions. I could then have RMC make me up cases to those external dimensions and put a correct head stamp on them. The trick is however RMC will make the exterior of the case any way you want it but the inside is always cylinder bored so what I would end up with is a 357 maximum case inside and a case that was 0.015" larger in head diameter and .012" longer but not really true to the original cartridge. In the spirit of the game does that really matter? Is the expense justified? There is nothing wrong with local clubs having an open or unlimited class for shooters that are pushing the envelope or trying something new. I know several individuals that regularly shoot Borchardts. While the NRA doesn't recognize the Borchardt for competitive purposes even though it certainly fits the "old dead guys" time period and is much more historically correct than many of the "approved" actions. The point being this; we do this for fun. A drawer full of trinkets or a shelf full of trophies doesn't put bread on the table. We are in perilous times in this country and if the shooting sports are to survive we need everyone to be included if they show up regardless if it meets the romantic ideals of long ago. Continued good shooting to everyone.

George Springer

[gws]

Dan,

I'm there with you. Let me know when the reamer is ready.

Best Regards,

George Springer

[Don McDowell]

Well we could arque about the silliness of trying to justify the 357 max as being based on the 35 maynard, but that's just a waste of time.
You by your own admission state that you would have to have Dave Casey build you brass if you had a reamer made to the exact specifications of the 35 maynard, so it looks to me like doing anything other than that, is simply revisionist history.
As per the Borchardt thing, we can agree there, that's one of the dumbest things they did when setting the rules was to disallow the 78 model sharps, it was highly thought of in the shooting world, why they left it off is a great mystery to me.

Yes we do this for fun, but when we see the "special" class getting to engage themselves into the revisionist history , and see that same "special" class of folks talk down to and harang on folks not in the select group of pretty people, you do nothing to help the shooting sports. In fact I'm pretty sure that sort of bullshit is responsible for turning alot of people away. Wasn't long ago someone mentioned using a stock winchester 405 hiwall loaded with black for a kids rifle, and you'ld a thought some one tugged way to hard on the pink bow tie wadded up under some of the "pretty peoples" panties..... Double standards will drive more folks away than the small number those same double standards will attract.
Good luck with your 357 remington maximum.

[Brent]

Excluding the Borchardt was an excellent move. And I even happen to own one. It has not business in a BPCR match in my opinion.

[Tasmanian Rebel]

I agree with Barvid. As long as someone has documentation these are legitimate cartridges, there shouold be no reason to not allow them. I wouldn't know a 357 max from a 38 Ballard XL but certainly see no problem with them if a shooter has a case with the same dimensions. It's only important to me that a 35-40 Maynard IS a legitimate cartridge as I would think one could load it up or down to duplicate the above cartridges. While you're at it Dan, you ought to re-submit to have the 35-55 Maynard reinstated as it was banned a few years ago due either to misinformation or just plain ignorance on part of the silhouette/BP committee. I know several shooters, some who post here, that have original rifles chambered in that caliber. I have no desire to use one but there should be no reason to not allow those shooters to shoot theirs. I find it comical that some of the same shooters that say these 35's won't shoot out to ram distances also want to disallow certain .35 calibers for silhouette/Mid-Range. The thing that is driving this is FEAR, not some heroic statement to protect the game. The next time any of you shoots in a match look and see how many young shooters you have there.We need to introduce new/young shooter to this sport and using these cartridges could help.
A.K. Lay Jr

[Bad Bill]

I agree with everyone. Borchardt doesn't loook right and doesn't have a hammer, I want a 35-30 or 38xl, hint, hint, and a 405 highwal with black ought to be a good fun round and be the same or near as something.